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The USA is a country of laws. It's possible that people submitting packages are submitting illegal malware; spyware, ransomware, software to steal crypto money,

The USA is a country of laws. It's possible that people submitting packages are submitting illegal malware; spyware, ransomware, software to steal crypto money, or run illegal ticket-buying bots. Ethical oversight is baked into the institutions through governance structures. Institutions aren't perfect. Also there tend to be more complaints in the media about a country's institutions than in regions where there is not a free press. So the voices complaining online don't necessarily correlate with where the problems most lie.

Loquebantur 3y ago
Describing the US as a country of laws is a little funny. The mere existence of laws does not imply much. Your examples are even weirder. How would such malfeasance justify clandestine observations? That is clearly disproportional, thus unethical. Claiming governance structures were "baked into" institutions is pure hopium. Democratic oversight means, there must be transparency enabling you as a citizen to detect and react to misconduct, at least by proxy. The "free press" isn't free to report and investigate such subpoenas, obviously.
- williamcotton 3y ago
  If law enforcement was never allowed to engage in clandestine operations then it would hamper their ability to build a case against and/or apprehend criminals. Case in point, organized crime syndicates. This is why the majority of your fellow citizens disagree with you and are fine with the current state of affairs.
  - pksebben 3y ago
    That seems like kind of a fabricated boogeyman, though. I have an extremely hard time thinking of anyone I know whose been affected by an organized crime syndicate, but I can immediately bring to mind a whole host of injustices suffered at the hands of government agencies, from bogus tickets to civil forfeiture to imprisionment for victimless 'crimes' (and that's not even accounting for blanket stuff like xkeyscore or spending my tax dollars on nonsense like the iraq war - all arguably way worse than any criminal organization without government backing could ever hope to inflict)
    - sjy 3y ago
      What about a ransomware, phishing or data breach victim? Cybercrimes are often committed by organised criminals and investigating them seems like the most obvious reason for the DOJ to issue a subpoena to PyPI.
    - williamcotton 3y ago
      This is my high school buddy’s dad: https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/watchdog/2013/12/11/brinks-leonardo-amsa/3987887/ https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/watchdog/2013/12/... Three of my teenage friends were in his basement when the FBI kicked down the door and stormed in armed to the teeth. Perhaps you’re fine letting thieves and murderers get the upper hand but the rest of us are not. Consider yourself lucky that criminals haven’t had much of an impact on your life.
      - Obscurity4340 3y ago
        Sorry, what point are you trying to make?
        williamcotton 3y ago
        A very basic one: organized crime does in fact exist (contra to claims of bogeymen) and law enforcement benefits from clandestine investigations. It is a trade-off. The downsides have been enumerated ad nauseam on hacker forums for decades and compared to the reality of organized crime comprise just a small percentage of the ill effects experienced in a relatively low corruption society like the United States.
        danaris 3y ago
        No one is trying to claim organized crime does not exist. They are claiming that the harms from organized crime may not be as bad on the whole as the harms from some of these laws intended (at least in part) to combat it. This does not, of course, mean that the harms to certain individuals from organized crime aren't worse. But governing based on a small number of emotional anecdotes, and ignoring the broader harms being perpetrated to placate that vocal minority, is deeply irresponsible.
- anigbrowl 3y ago
  In a lot of ways, being 'a nation of laws' means the officeholders can evade any kind of personal responsibility by asserting that they're just one cog in the legal gear wheel. Which one? Well that can take years of litigation to establish. Of course, the idea is that people are corruptible whereas laws are clear and neutral, but reality falls far short of this ideal. Any system can be gamed and ultimately captured; the more widely accountability is distributed, the less the probability of its timely application.
yrnameer 3y ago
> Ethical oversight is baked into the institutions through governance structures. Kind of a shocking assumption to make. Over the past several decades it has become increasingly apparent how our governing structures have no inherent relationship with ethics.
- riazrizvi 3y ago
  You’re extrapolating incidents that are being called out in the press to improve the system onto vast legislative infrastructure that is operating day after day for 100’s millions of people in this country.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

Loquebantur 3y ago

Describing the US as a country of laws is a little funny. The mere existence of laws does not imply much. Your examples are even weirder. How would such malfeasance justify clandestine observations? That is clearly disproportional, thus unethical. Claiming governance structures were "baked into" institutions is pure hopium. Democratic oversight means, there must be transparency enabling you as a citizen to detect and react to misconduct, at least by proxy. The "free press" isn't free to report and investigate such subpoenas, obviously.

williamcotton 3y ago
If law enforcement was never allowed to engage in clandestine operations then it would hamper their ability to build a case against and/or apprehend criminals. Case in point, organized crime syndicates. This is why the majority of your fellow citizens disagree with you and are fine with the current state of affairs.
- pksebben 3y ago
  That seems like kind of a fabricated boogeyman, though. I have an extremely hard time thinking of anyone I know whose been affected by an organized crime syndicate, but I can immediately bring to mind a whole host of injustices suffered at the hands of government agencies, from bogus tickets to civil forfeiture to imprisionment for victimless 'crimes' (and that's not even accounting for blanket stuff like xkeyscore or spending my tax dollars on nonsense like the iraq war - all arguably way worse than any criminal organization without government backing could ever hope to inflict)
  - sjy 3y ago
    What about a ransomware, phishing or data breach victim? Cybercrimes are often committed by organised criminals and investigating them seems like the most obvious reason for the DOJ to issue a subpoena to PyPI.
  - williamcotton 3y ago
    This is my high school buddy’s dad: https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/watchdog/2013/12/11/brinks-leonardo-amsa/3987887/ https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/watchdog/2013/12/... Three of my teenage friends were in his basement when the FBI kicked down the door and stormed in armed to the teeth. Perhaps you’re fine letting thieves and murderers get the upper hand but the rest of us are not. Consider yourself lucky that criminals haven’t had much of an impact on your life.
    - Obscurity4340 3y ago
      Sorry, what point are you trying to make?
      - williamcotton 3y ago
        A very basic one: organized crime does in fact exist (contra to claims of bogeymen) and law enforcement benefits from clandestine investigations. It is a trade-off. The downsides have been enumerated ad nauseam on hacker forums for decades and compared to the reality of organized crime comprise just a small percentage of the ill effects experienced in a relatively low corruption society like the United States.
        danaris 3y ago
        No one is trying to claim organized crime does not exist. They are claiming that the harms from organized crime may not be as bad on the whole as the harms from some of these laws intended (at least in part) to combat it. This does not, of course, mean that the harms to certain individuals from organized crime aren't worse. But governing based on a small number of emotional anecdotes, and ignoring the broader harms being perpetrated to placate that vocal minority, is deeply irresponsible.
anigbrowl 3y ago
In a lot of ways, being 'a nation of laws' means the officeholders can evade any kind of personal responsibility by asserting that they're just one cog in the legal gear wheel. Which one? Well that can take years of litigation to establish. Of course, the idea is that people are corruptible whereas laws are clear and neutral, but reality falls far short of this ideal. Any system can be gamed and ultimately captured; the more widely accountability is distributed, the less the probability of its timely application.

yrnameer 3y ago

> Ethical oversight is baked into the institutions through governance structures. Kind of a shocking assumption to make. Over the past several decades it has become increasingly apparent how our governing structures have no inherent relationship with ethics.

riazrizvi 3y ago
You’re extrapolating incidents that are being called out in the press to improve the system onto vast legislative infrastructure that is operating day after day for 100’s millions of people in this country.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]