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Do not worry, we, the Germans, are finally starting to hold those responsible accountable: https://www.dw.com/en/german-police-swoop-on-last-generation-climate-

by hkwerf 3y ago

Do not worry, we, the Germans, are finally starting to hold those responsible accountable: https://www.dw.com/en/german-police-swoop-on-last-generation-climate-activists/a-65715954 https://www.dw.com/en/german-police-swoop-on-last-generation... Oh, wait...

CalRobert 3y ago
Germany is such a bafflingly inconsistent country. Freiburg prides itself on reusable cups but they're very quick to replace nuclear with coal for no clear reason.
nate_meurer 3y ago
> Two of the suspects also allegedly planned to sabotage an oil pipeline linking the Bavarian city of Ingolstadt to the port of Trieste in Italy. Assuming this is a plausible threat, would you prefer the government to simply decriminalize vandalism?
- hkwerf 3y ago
  That's beside the point: The German government did not act against those responsible for climate change, they acted against those protesting for laws that are slightly stricter than those we have right now. Whether the ends justify the means is a different question and maybe one reserved for more severe crimes? In another century, the relation whether blocking traffic for a protest is acceptable vs. 4 K increase in temperature will look quite differently than it does today. However, history will remember what we do now, not in ten years, as we have done far too little for decades and are now quickly approaching the tipping points our grandchildren will learn about in school.
  - nate_meurer 3y ago
    Ok, but you posted a news story about the German government trying to stop some people from blowing up oil pipelines, which is presumably illegal in Germany. You appear to believe that's unjust. So my question for you is, should the government allow activists to blow shit up?
    - hkwerf 3y ago
      That is not in the news story I posted. They "allegedly planned to sabotage". I can't find an English source here and the Letzte Generation web page has been shut down, so here's a German source from a right-wing online newspaper about the sabotage [1]. I'll try to translate what they write, including a quote from a Letzte Generation publication: > In einer Pressemitteilung teilte die Gruppierung mit, es seien in ganz Deutschland „Rohöl-Pipelines abgedreht und damit der Ölfluss unterbrochen“ worden. In Zweierteams hätten Aktivisten die Notfall-Absperr-Stationen der Pipelines betreten und „mit ihren eigenen Händen die Sperrventile“ aktiviert, die in Notfällen ein sicheres Abdrehen des Öl- und Gasflusses ermöglichten. > In a press release, the group [Letzte Generation] announced they "turned off crude oil pipelines" all across Germany "and thus disrupted the flow of oil". Supposedly, the two-person activist teams entered emergency valve stations of pipelines and manually activated the shut-off valves, which are responsible for safely turning off oil and gas transmission. If the right-wing media already acknowledges that there is no "blowing shit up" but "safely turn[ing] off", I'm pretty sure you'll find it hard to frame it otherwise. It also would not fit the picture: Letzte Generation has been explicitly non-violent. You'll also find that this happened over a year ago. There was definitely no emergency, as "blow shit up" would imply. 1: https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article238407383/Letzte-Generation-Klima-Gruppe-versucht-Pipelines-abzudrehen.html https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article238407383/Let...
      - nate_meurer 3y ago
        You're dancing around my question. Do you believe governments should allow climate activists to vandalize, sabotage, destroy, or disrupt infrastructure or public property?

by hkwerf 3y ago

CalRobert 3y ago

Germany is such a bafflingly inconsistent country. Freiburg prides itself on reusable cups but they're very quick to replace nuclear with coal for no clear reason.

nate_meurer 3y ago

> Two of the suspects also allegedly planned to sabotage an oil pipeline linking the Bavarian city of Ingolstadt to the port of Trieste in Italy. Assuming this is a plausible threat, would you prefer the government to simply decriminalize vandalism?

hkwerf 3y ago
That's beside the point: The German government did not act against those responsible for climate change, they acted against those protesting for laws that are slightly stricter than those we have right now. Whether the ends justify the means is a different question and maybe one reserved for more severe crimes? In another century, the relation whether blocking traffic for a protest is acceptable vs. 4 K increase in temperature will look quite differently than it does today. However, history will remember what we do now, not in ten years, as we have done far too little for decades and are now quickly approaching the tipping points our grandchildren will learn about in school.
- nate_meurer 3y ago
  Ok, but you posted a news story about the German government trying to stop some people from blowing up oil pipelines, which is presumably illegal in Germany. You appear to believe that's unjust. So my question for you is, should the government allow activists to blow shit up?
  - hkwerf 3y ago
    That is not in the news story I posted. They "allegedly planned to sabotage". I can't find an English source here and the Letzte Generation web page has been shut down, so here's a German source from a right-wing online newspaper about the sabotage [1]. I'll try to translate what they write, including a quote from a Letzte Generation publication: > In einer Pressemitteilung teilte die Gruppierung mit, es seien in ganz Deutschland „Rohöl-Pipelines abgedreht und damit der Ölfluss unterbrochen“ worden. In Zweierteams hätten Aktivisten die Notfall-Absperr-Stationen der Pipelines betreten und „mit ihren eigenen Händen die Sperrventile“ aktiviert, die in Notfällen ein sicheres Abdrehen des Öl- und Gasflusses ermöglichten. > In a press release, the group [Letzte Generation] announced they "turned off crude oil pipelines" all across Germany "and thus disrupted the flow of oil". Supposedly, the two-person activist teams entered emergency valve stations of pipelines and manually activated the shut-off valves, which are responsible for safely turning off oil and gas transmission. If the right-wing media already acknowledges that there is no "blowing shit up" but "safely turn[ing] off", I'm pretty sure you'll find it hard to frame it otherwise. It also would not fit the picture: Letzte Generation has been explicitly non-violent. You'll also find that this happened over a year ago. There was definitely no emergency, as "blow shit up" would imply. 1: https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article238407383/Letzte-Generation-Klima-Gruppe-versucht-Pipelines-abzudrehen.html https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article238407383/Let...
    - nate_meurer 3y ago
      You're dancing around my question. Do you believe governments should allow climate activists to vandalize, sabotage, destroy, or disrupt infrastructure or public property?