5 ms·

> Since 2017, our technology has played a critical role in making communities safer. >70% reported reduction in crime I’m sorry, but this has to be pure fabric

by 2023throwawayy 3y ago

> Since 2017, our technology has played a critical role in making communities safer. >70% reported reduction in crime I’m sorry, but this has to be pure fabrication. There is just no way it’s even remotely plausible that this privacy invading startup affected crime to such a degree.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
dghlsakjg 3y ago
I would be willing to bet that the statistic is actually: In 70% of communities with flock installed, there has, at some point, been a lower crime rate than at the time of installation. Either way, it's either BS, or pure non-causitive correlation. Their technology is something that can only help solve crimes, not prevent it.
- hattmall 3y ago
  Solving crimes is huge part of prevention though. Most crime is done by all very small set of criminals. The sooner you can catch some of those people the more crime is prevented.
  - giraffe_lady 3y ago
    Gon need some citations there boss. Most studies I've seen of this show no or only a very weak link between enforcement and crime rates. There are a ton of confounding variables & broader trends and it's very difficult to make confident assertions about it. It is mostly only the police and police affiliates who release "studies" that strongly correlate these. What you're saying makes intuitive sense but it turns out people are not for the most part destined for criminality or not. It's a social phenomenon that responds to social pressures and incentives. If you arrest all the criminals in an area, the pressures that created them will create a new batch of criminals, in fact are already creating them.
    - anshorei 3y ago
      And if you don't arrest them, not only will they commit crimes, but a new batch of criminals will also commit crimes. This is not a question of enforcement or prevention, this is a question of doing both.
      - giraffe_lady 3y ago
        That's another way of saying about the same thing. Which, again, is intuitive and sounds correct. But again, most studies I've seen of this show no or only a very weak link between enforcement and crime rates. Except those issued by the police themselves. Where have you gotten this information?
    - zo1 3y ago
      We don't need a study to prove that policing is effective at stopping or preventing crime. I don't actually know what you're suggesting we do instead. But until you can show me a study that shows a community with zero crime based on some "social pressure" solution I'm not listening.
      - giraffe_lady 3y ago
        That's certainly a... stance.... Personally I'd like to know that the force we put hundreds of billions of dollars towards every year does have an effect. Why is the burden here zero crime? Are you showing me a community that does have police and has zero crime? Our current solution is expensive and terrible, an alternative needs to be merely better not perfect. I know in advance you're not listening because you told me so, and because it's what I expect from people who are happy with the current atrocities and human rights violations we call policing.
        thghtihadanacct 3y ago
        I found this https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2021/04/20/988769793/when-you-add-more-police-to-a-city-what-happens https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2021/04/20/988769793/when... an excerpt about a study by Morgan C. Williams Jr. that states their study shows more police does reduce crime in an area. In looking for this I ran into a lot of statistics especially those that show crime has largely dropped since the early 90's but peoples perception of non-local crime has gone up. I blame the media.
rob74 3y ago
I guess one hand-picked "community" that installed their cameras had 4 break-ins in the year before and only 1 in the year after. That's probably the same effect as when you put a really good lock on your bike - the bike thieves will simply steal the bike next to yours that's not so well secured...
- vlovich123 3y ago
  Or just normal statistical variance.
DannyBee 3y ago
IIRC, it's https://www.wired.com/story/flock-safety-license-plate-readers-crime/ https://www.wired.com/story/flock-safety-license-plate-reade... and friends. Oh, actually, the 70% was in Marino, CA, and 40% was in Dayton, OH. This is a different one. I've heard about it because Flock has lots of folks in Atlanta. I have no tie to them or view (though there were flock cameras in my part of the neighborhood and we chose not to renew) I believe there is even an official report/study pdf somewhere, but i can't find it at the moment. I remember it coming up in various council/civic meetings. They definitely have run partnerships/studies with police departments and the statistics are not completely obvious nonsense. But at the same time, proving anything like the quoted statement in a methodologically sound way is obviously remarkably difficult, and i have doubts it was done to that degree. I know at least one place did a randomized, controlled trial, but it was of cameras attached to police cars as well as fixed cameras: https://www.theiacp.org/sites/default/files/2018-08/March%202018%20RIB.pdf https://www.theiacp.org/sites/default/files/2018-08/March%20... NIJ did a study a decade ago and found nothing for mobile ALPR: https://nij.ojp.gov/library/publications/license-plate-reader-lpr-police-patrols-crime-hot-spots-experimental https://nij.ojp.gov/library/publications/license-plate-reade...

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

dghlsakjg 3y ago

I would be willing to bet that the statistic is actually: In 70% of communities with flock installed, there has, at some point, been a lower crime rate than at the time of installation. Either way, it's either BS, or pure non-causitive correlation. Their technology is something that can only help solve crimes, not prevent it.

hattmall 3y ago
Solving crimes is huge part of prevention though. Most crime is done by all very small set of criminals. The sooner you can catch some of those people the more crime is prevented.
- giraffe_lady 3y ago
  Gon need some citations there boss. Most studies I've seen of this show no or only a very weak link between enforcement and crime rates. There are a ton of confounding variables & broader trends and it's very difficult to make confident assertions about it. It is mostly only the police and police affiliates who release "studies" that strongly correlate these. What you're saying makes intuitive sense but it turns out people are not for the most part destined for criminality or not. It's a social phenomenon that responds to social pressures and incentives. If you arrest all the criminals in an area, the pressures that created them will create a new batch of criminals, in fact are already creating them.
  - anshorei 3y ago
    And if you don't arrest them, not only will they commit crimes, but a new batch of criminals will also commit crimes. This is not a question of enforcement or prevention, this is a question of doing both.
    - giraffe_lady 3y ago
      That's another way of saying about the same thing. Which, again, is intuitive and sounds correct. But again, most studies I've seen of this show no or only a very weak link between enforcement and crime rates. Except those issued by the police themselves. Where have you gotten this information?
  - zo1 3y ago
    We don't need a study to prove that policing is effective at stopping or preventing crime. I don't actually know what you're suggesting we do instead. But until you can show me a study that shows a community with zero crime based on some "social pressure" solution I'm not listening.
    - giraffe_lady 3y ago
      That's certainly a... stance.... Personally I'd like to know that the force we put hundreds of billions of dollars towards every year does have an effect. Why is the burden here zero crime? Are you showing me a community that does have police and has zero crime? Our current solution is expensive and terrible, an alternative needs to be merely better not perfect. I know in advance you're not listening because you told me so, and because it's what I expect from people who are happy with the current atrocities and human rights violations we call policing.
      - thghtihadanacct 3y ago
        I found this https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2021/04/20/988769793/when-you-add-more-police-to-a-city-what-happens https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2021/04/20/988769793/when... an excerpt about a study by Morgan C. Williams Jr. that states their study shows more police does reduce crime in an area. In looking for this I ran into a lot of statistics especially those that show crime has largely dropped since the early 90's but peoples perception of non-local crime has gone up. I blame the media.

rob74 3y ago

I guess one hand-picked "community" that installed their cameras had 4 break-ins in the year before and only 1 in the year after. That's probably the same effect as when you put a really good lock on your bike - the bike thieves will simply steal the bike next to yours that's not so well secured...

vlovich123 3y ago
Or just normal statistical variance.

DannyBee 3y ago

IIRC, it's https://www.wired.com/story/flock-safety-license-plate-readers-crime/ https://www.wired.com/story/flock-safety-license-plate-reade... and friends. Oh, actually, the 70% was in Marino, CA, and 40% was in Dayton, OH. This is a different one. I've heard about it because Flock has lots of folks in Atlanta. I have no tie to them or view (though there were flock cameras in my part of the neighborhood and we chose not to renew) I believe there is even an official report/study pdf somewhere, but i can't find it at the moment. I remember it coming up in various council/civic meetings. They definitely have run partnerships/studies with police departments and the statistics are not completely obvious nonsense. But at the same time, proving anything like the quoted statement in a methodologically sound way is obviously remarkably difficult, and i have doubts it was done to that degree. I know at least one place did a randomized, controlled trial, but it was of cameras attached to police cars as well as fixed cameras: https://www.theiacp.org/sites/default/files/2018-08/March%202018%20RIB.pdf https://www.theiacp.org/sites/default/files/2018-08/March%20... NIJ did a study a decade ago and found nothing for mobile ALPR: https://nij.ojp.gov/library/publications/license-plate-reader-lpr-police-patrols-crime-hot-spots-experimental https://nij.ojp.gov/library/publications/license-plate-reade...