4 ms·

Clearly “middle-click” was just an example of how to open a link in new tab. Screen readers don’t have a way to do that?

pqb 3y ago
No, at least not in VoiceOver, which I use. In my experience, screen readers/assistants don't mimic the left/middle/right click of the mouse [0]. You often get two options: left click and double click [1]. There is also a right-click menu (control space), but unless it is based on a system-native UI, it is likely to be unusable for SR. [0]: It is even easier to not use a mouse, when you are using an assistant. With a keyboard and VO you can resize, drag and drop and do many more activities. [1]: https://support.apple.com/en-us/guide/voiceover/mchlp2746/10/mac/13.0 https://support.apple.com/en-us/guide/voiceover/mchlp2746/10...
- aendruk 3y ago
  I don’t have a Mac to try it but a quick web search suggests Command+Return.
  - pqb 3y ago
    Uh, that's interesting, but it does not work for me :( AFAIK, VO+Command+Return can be used to select multiple things, not to click. For example, in the file viewer (Finder.app, similar to Nautilus/explorer.exe), it is similar to pressing Control (win/linux) and the left mouse button when the cursor is over a file to add it to the selection. Edit: To open a page in a new tab in a Firefox with stock VoiceOver, I need to press VO+Shift+M to open context menu (aka right-click menu), and then select an option from the list (by greping, using arrows etc.).
    - extra88 3y ago
      VoiceOver is most often, and best, paired with Safari. By default, Command-Return, no VO key, opens a focused link in a new tab behind the current tab. It's not a VoiceOver-specific keyboard command. It also works in Firefox and Chrome. However, by default, Safari does not focus links when pressing the Tab key, you need to go to Settings > Advanced and check "Press Tab to highlight each item on a webpage" first.
      - pqb 3y ago
        Thanks, I didn't know about that.
kwhitefoot 3y ago
Even if a screen reader does, someone using a touch screen usually doesn't. If you step out of your bubble for a moment you'll notice that quite a lot of non-technical people no longer have computers, they do everything on a mobile device of some sort which typically does not have a mouse or keyboard.
- aendruk 3y ago
  On a touch screen it’s typically something like long press -> Open in New Tab. Or you’re saying that’s beyond most people?
  - kwhitefoot 3y ago
    I'm quite confident that you wouldn't have to interview many people to discover that even though it is not beyond people that it is unknown to many. I know several non-technical people who find the distinction between window and tab difficult to manage for instance. As well as people who have had Android mobiles for years and still don't understand those three little buttons at the bottom of the screen: back, home, 'task' list.
    - aendruk 3y ago
      This is the conversation I think we’ve just had: d: Represent resources only as standard hypertext documents. h: Progressively enhance with nonstandard features. The traditional affordances of hypertext will remain available—for example, middle clicking to branch browser history. k: But screen readers can’t middle click. a: Branching is afforded by *some* interface though, right? w: Not on touch screens. a: Not even by using the touch interface? w: Nope. You can’t expect everyone to know how to use it. So we’ve established that many people are unable to effectively navigate the web using the native features of their web browser. It’s not clear to me how that informs the surrounding debate. Are browsers’ navigation features inadequate? In context that sounds like an argument in favor of websites implementing their own navigation. Personally I’d prefer us to prioritize building a web of addressable resources rather than applications, and to the extent that our user agents aren’t meeting our needs, improve them rather than work around them.
korijn 3y ago
It's why I put it in brackets.
- aendruk 3y ago
  So then it’s people with screen readers don’t click or type at all? What’s left, they just use voice commands?

pqb 3y ago

No, at least not in VoiceOver, which I use. In my experience, screen readers/assistants don't mimic the left/middle/right click of the mouse [0]. You often get two options: left click and double click [1]. There is also a right-click menu (control space), but unless it is based on a system-native UI, it is likely to be unusable for SR. [0]: It is even easier to not use a mouse, when you are using an assistant. With a keyboard and VO you can resize, drag and drop and do many more activities. [1]: https://support.apple.com/en-us/guide/voiceover/mchlp2746/10/mac/13.0 https://support.apple.com/en-us/guide/voiceover/mchlp2746/10...

aendruk 3y ago
I don’t have a Mac to try it but a quick web search suggests Command+Return.
- pqb 3y ago
  Uh, that's interesting, but it does not work for me :( AFAIK, VO+Command+Return can be used to select multiple things, not to click. For example, in the file viewer (Finder.app, similar to Nautilus/explorer.exe), it is similar to pressing Control (win/linux) and the left mouse button when the cursor is over a file to add it to the selection. Edit: To open a page in a new tab in a Firefox with stock VoiceOver, I need to press VO+Shift+M to open context menu (aka right-click menu), and then select an option from the list (by greping, using arrows etc.).
  - extra88 3y ago
    VoiceOver is most often, and best, paired with Safari. By default, Command-Return, no VO key, opens a focused link in a new tab behind the current tab. It's not a VoiceOver-specific keyboard command. It also works in Firefox and Chrome. However, by default, Safari does not focus links when pressing the Tab key, you need to go to Settings > Advanced and check "Press Tab to highlight each item on a webpage" first.
    - pqb 3y ago
      Thanks, I didn't know about that.

kwhitefoot 3y ago

Even if a screen reader does, someone using a touch screen usually doesn't. If you step out of your bubble for a moment you'll notice that quite a lot of non-technical people no longer have computers, they do everything on a mobile device of some sort which typically does not have a mouse or keyboard.

aendruk 3y ago
On a touch screen it’s typically something like long press -> Open in New Tab. Or you’re saying that’s beyond most people?
- kwhitefoot 3y ago
  I'm quite confident that you wouldn't have to interview many people to discover that even though it is not beyond people that it is unknown to many. I know several non-technical people who find the distinction between window and tab difficult to manage for instance. As well as people who have had Android mobiles for years and still don't understand those three little buttons at the bottom of the screen: back, home, 'task' list.
  - aendruk 3y ago
    This is the conversation I think we’ve just had: d: Represent resources only as standard hypertext documents. h: Progressively enhance with nonstandard features. The traditional affordances of hypertext will remain available—for example, middle clicking to branch browser history. k: But screen readers can’t middle click. a: Branching is afforded by *some* interface though, right? w: Not on touch screens. a: Not even by using the touch interface? w: Nope. You can’t expect everyone to know how to use it. So we’ve established that many people are unable to effectively navigate the web using the native features of their web browser. It’s not clear to me how that informs the surrounding debate. Are browsers’ navigation features inadequate? In context that sounds like an argument in favor of websites implementing their own navigation. Personally I’d prefer us to prioritize building a web of addressable resources rather than applications, and to the extent that our user agents aren’t meeting our needs, improve them rather than work around them.

korijn 3y ago

It's why I put it in brackets.

aendruk 3y ago
So then it’s people with screen readers don’t click or type at all? What’s left, they just use voice commands?