6 ms·

So what about people with screen readers? They don't (middle) click or type at all. Does your UX account for them too? If so: great. Usually, it's overlooked. I

by korijn 3y ago

So what about people with screen readers? They don't (middle) click or type at all. Does your UX account for them too? If so: great. Usually, it's overlooked. I think that's the point of this article. Standard browser controls are all 100% accessible by default.

aendruk 3y ago
Clearly “middle-click” was just an example of how to open a link in new tab. Screen readers don’t have a way to do that?
- pqb 3y ago
  No, at least not in VoiceOver, which I use. In my experience, screen readers/assistants don't mimic the left/middle/right click of the mouse [0]. You often get two options: left click and double click [1]. There is also a right-click menu (control space), but unless it is based on a system-native UI, it is likely to be unusable for SR. [0]: It is even easier to not use a mouse, when you are using an assistant. With a keyboard and VO you can resize, drag and drop and do many more activities. [1]: https://support.apple.com/en-us/guide/voiceover/mchlp2746/10/mac/13.0 https://support.apple.com/en-us/guide/voiceover/mchlp2746/10...
  - aendruk 3y ago
    I don’t have a Mac to try it but a quick web search suggests Command+Return.
    - pqb 3y ago
      Uh, that's interesting, but it does not work for me :( AFAIK, VO+Command+Return can be used to select multiple things, not to click. For example, in the file viewer (Finder.app, similar to Nautilus/explorer.exe), it is similar to pressing Control (win/linux) and the left mouse button when the cursor is over a file to add it to the selection. Edit: To open a page in a new tab in a Firefox with stock VoiceOver, I need to press VO+Shift+M to open context menu (aka right-click menu), and then select an option from the list (by greping, using arrows etc.).
      - extra88 3y ago
        VoiceOver is most often, and best, paired with Safari. By default, Command-Return, no VO key, opens a focused link in a new tab behind the current tab. It's not a VoiceOver-specific keyboard command. It also works in Firefox and Chrome. However, by default, Safari does not focus links when pressing the Tab key, you need to go to Settings > Advanced and check "Press Tab to highlight each item on a webpage" first.
        pqb 3y ago
        Thanks, I didn't know about that.
- kwhitefoot 3y ago
  Even if a screen reader does, someone using a touch screen usually doesn't. If you step out of your bubble for a moment you'll notice that quite a lot of non-technical people no longer have computers, they do everything on a mobile device of some sort which typically does not have a mouse or keyboard.
  - aendruk 3y ago
    On a touch screen it’s typically something like long press -> Open in New Tab. Or you’re saying that’s beyond most people?
    - kwhitefoot 3y ago
      I'm quite confident that you wouldn't have to interview many people to discover that even though it is not beyond people that it is unknown to many. I know several non-technical people who find the distinction between window and tab difficult to manage for instance. As well as people who have had Android mobiles for years and still don't understand those three little buttons at the bottom of the screen: back, home, 'task' list.
      - aendruk 3y ago
        This is the conversation I think we’ve just had: d: Represent resources only as standard hypertext documents. h: Progressively enhance with nonstandard features. The traditional affordances of hypertext will remain available—for example, middle clicking to branch browser history. k: But screen readers can’t middle click. a: Branching is afforded by *some* interface though, right? w: Not on touch screens. a: Not even by using the touch interface? w: Nope. You can’t expect everyone to know how to use it. So we’ve established that many people are unable to effectively navigate the web using the native features of their web browser. It’s not clear to me how that informs the surrounding debate. Are browsers’ navigation features inadequate? In context that sounds like an argument in favor of websites implementing their own navigation. Personally I’d prefer us to prioritize building a web of addressable resources rather than applications, and to the extent that our user agents aren’t meeting our needs, improve them rather than work around them.
- korijn 3y ago
  It's why I put it in brackets.
  - aendruk 3y ago
    So then it’s people with screen readers don’t click or type at all? What’s left, they just use voice commands?
huhtenberg 3y ago
Accessibility support is a matter of priorities for a given project. If 99.99% of your target audience is not using screen readers, then you need to decide if worsening their experience to accommodate the other 0.01% aligns with your project plans and goals. In some cases it will, in some it won't. It depends.
- ToruiDev 3y ago
  There's also cases where you're legally required to support them E.g. ADA (Americans with disabilities act) website compliance which seems to be required when the employer has more than 15 employees
  - recursive 3y ago
    My employer has more than that, and is not subject to it. I don't know exactly why, but I think has something to do with availability to public? Our users are employees of our customers.
- duncan-donuts 3y ago
  Accessibility is so much more than screen readers.
- gumby 3y ago
  First, in the US accessibility support is the law. While it is far from well* enforced, your simple formulation of “priorities” obscures the fact that the team is prioritizing convenience vs law. Yes we all do this when deciding, say, how fast to drive. But we know when we are speeding. Second: in physical space: ramps are required to be implemented in a way that supports wheelchair use. Yet they create alternative affordances: I have appreciated them when when I have broken a limb, for example, even though they weren’t “intended” for that. They are clearly mostly used by delivery people; not only does it make deliveries easier, but reduces incidents of injuries, strains etc. The same applies to web sites: cleaner affordances allow people to use the page in ways not imagined by the designer. * By imperfectly I don’t mean “not hyper vigilantly”, I mean that it is often observed in the breach; sometimes it can have negative effects (consider the Berkeley videos case), etc. But that is much better than no attempt at all.
cyral 3y ago
There has been a native <dialog/> element in HTML for a while for accessibility.
- korijn 3y ago
  That's mentioned in the article.
extra88 3y ago
Are you confusing screen readers with voice control software? Screen readers are most often used by people with vision impairments; with desktop operating systems, they use a keyboard not just for typing in form fields but to navigate and control all the websites and software on their device instead of a mouse or other device that operates a cursor. Voice control software is used most often by people with limited use of their hands, verbal commands replace keyboard and cursor control inputs. > Standard browser controls are all 100% accessible by default. Unfortunately, this is not entirely true. For instance, `select` elements and their options don't reflow in most browsers. It is true that the native elements are much more accessible than most alternatives developers create.

by korijn 3y ago

aendruk 3y ago

Clearly “middle-click” was just an example of how to open a link in new tab. Screen readers don’t have a way to do that?

pqb 3y ago
No, at least not in VoiceOver, which I use. In my experience, screen readers/assistants don't mimic the left/middle/right click of the mouse [0]. You often get two options: left click and double click [1]. There is also a right-click menu (control space), but unless it is based on a system-native UI, it is likely to be unusable for SR. [0]: It is even easier to not use a mouse, when you are using an assistant. With a keyboard and VO you can resize, drag and drop and do many more activities. [1]: https://support.apple.com/en-us/guide/voiceover/mchlp2746/10/mac/13.0 https://support.apple.com/en-us/guide/voiceover/mchlp2746/10...
- aendruk 3y ago
  I don’t have a Mac to try it but a quick web search suggests Command+Return.
  - pqb 3y ago
    Uh, that's interesting, but it does not work for me :( AFAIK, VO+Command+Return can be used to select multiple things, not to click. For example, in the file viewer (Finder.app, similar to Nautilus/explorer.exe), it is similar to pressing Control (win/linux) and the left mouse button when the cursor is over a file to add it to the selection. Edit: To open a page in a new tab in a Firefox with stock VoiceOver, I need to press VO+Shift+M to open context menu (aka right-click menu), and then select an option from the list (by greping, using arrows etc.).
    - extra88 3y ago
      VoiceOver is most often, and best, paired with Safari. By default, Command-Return, no VO key, opens a focused link in a new tab behind the current tab. It's not a VoiceOver-specific keyboard command. It also works in Firefox and Chrome. However, by default, Safari does not focus links when pressing the Tab key, you need to go to Settings > Advanced and check "Press Tab to highlight each item on a webpage" first.
      - pqb 3y ago
        Thanks, I didn't know about that.
kwhitefoot 3y ago
Even if a screen reader does, someone using a touch screen usually doesn't. If you step out of your bubble for a moment you'll notice that quite a lot of non-technical people no longer have computers, they do everything on a mobile device of some sort which typically does not have a mouse or keyboard.
- aendruk 3y ago
  On a touch screen it’s typically something like long press -> Open in New Tab. Or you’re saying that’s beyond most people?
  - kwhitefoot 3y ago
    I'm quite confident that you wouldn't have to interview many people to discover that even though it is not beyond people that it is unknown to many. I know several non-technical people who find the distinction between window and tab difficult to manage for instance. As well as people who have had Android mobiles for years and still don't understand those three little buttons at the bottom of the screen: back, home, 'task' list.
    - aendruk 3y ago
      This is the conversation I think we’ve just had: d: Represent resources only as standard hypertext documents. h: Progressively enhance with nonstandard features. The traditional affordances of hypertext will remain available—for example, middle clicking to branch browser history. k: But screen readers can’t middle click. a: Branching is afforded by *some* interface though, right? w: Not on touch screens. a: Not even by using the touch interface? w: Nope. You can’t expect everyone to know how to use it. So we’ve established that many people are unable to effectively navigate the web using the native features of their web browser. It’s not clear to me how that informs the surrounding debate. Are browsers’ navigation features inadequate? In context that sounds like an argument in favor of websites implementing their own navigation. Personally I’d prefer us to prioritize building a web of addressable resources rather than applications, and to the extent that our user agents aren’t meeting our needs, improve them rather than work around them.
korijn 3y ago
It's why I put it in brackets.
- aendruk 3y ago
  So then it’s people with screen readers don’t click or type at all? What’s left, they just use voice commands?

huhtenberg 3y ago

Accessibility support is a matter of priorities for a given project. If 99.99% of your target audience is not using screen readers, then you need to decide if worsening their experience to accommodate the other 0.01% aligns with your project plans and goals. In some cases it will, in some it won't. It depends.

ToruiDev 3y ago
There's also cases where you're legally required to support them E.g. ADA (Americans with disabilities act) website compliance which seems to be required when the employer has more than 15 employees
- recursive 3y ago
  My employer has more than that, and is not subject to it. I don't know exactly why, but I think has something to do with availability to public? Our users are employees of our customers.
duncan-donuts 3y ago
Accessibility is so much more than screen readers.
gumby 3y ago
First, in the US accessibility support is the law. While it is far from well* enforced, your simple formulation of “priorities” obscures the fact that the team is prioritizing convenience vs law. Yes we all do this when deciding, say, how fast to drive. But we know when we are speeding. Second: in physical space: ramps are required to be implemented in a way that supports wheelchair use. Yet they create alternative affordances: I have appreciated them when when I have broken a limb, for example, even though they weren’t “intended” for that. They are clearly mostly used by delivery people; not only does it make deliveries easier, but reduces incidents of injuries, strains etc. The same applies to web sites: cleaner affordances allow people to use the page in ways not imagined by the designer. * By imperfectly I don’t mean “not hyper vigilantly”, I mean that it is often observed in the breach; sometimes it can have negative effects (consider the Berkeley videos case), etc. But that is much better than no attempt at all.

cyral 3y ago

There has been a native <dialog/> element in HTML for a while for accessibility.

korijn 3y ago
That's mentioned in the article.

extra88 3y ago

Are you confusing screen readers with voice control software? Screen readers are most often used by people with vision impairments; with desktop operating systems, they use a keyboard not just for typing in form fields but to navigate and control all the websites and software on their device instead of a mouse or other device that operates a cursor. Voice control software is used most often by people with limited use of their hands, verbal commands replace keyboard and cursor control inputs. > Standard browser controls are all 100% accessible by default. Unfortunately, this is not entirely true. For instance, `select` elements and their options don't reflow in most browsers. It is true that the native elements are much more accessible than most alternatives developers create.