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The idea that COBOL is at the heart of bank systems is a persistent myth that gets published every now and again alongside some story about how essential these

The idea that COBOL is at the heart of bank systems is a persistent myth that gets published every now and again alongside some story about how essential these systems are, how they can never be replaced and how the people maintaining these systems are a dieing breed. Almost all of this seems untrue (except maybe the last one). I’ve worked at a variety of banks from front to back office across securities and private wealth. I’ve seen plenty of company-specific languages, plenty of C++, Java, perl, python but have literally never encountered a COBOL system. There’s one system at one of the banks that I was a contractor at which may have been COBOL I’m not sure. I didn’t work directly on it and it ran on a Tandem. I’ve never worked for a pure retail bank so it’s possible that some pure retail banks use COBOL, but I have worked on settlement systems, payment systems, reconciliation systems etc including for banks that have a retail arm as part of a larger bank and haven’t seen hide nor hair of COBOL anywhere. Some cynical part of me wonders whether IBM PR or some niche trade body or recruitment agency seeds these stories into the press every now and again to get people to fixate on COBOL and these clunky mainframes being somehow essential to the financial system.

Mashimo 3y ago
A friend of mine worked for a bank, or rather part of a bank that did the payroll I think. And they where working on converting all the COBOL to java a few years back. From personal experience when I got a loan approved I noticed the bank dude had to log into a terminal based system via remote login to a VM. But I can't say for certain that it was written in COBOL. But certainly written around or before the 90s.
nubinetwork 3y ago
Maybe not COBOL, but I know someone who works for a payment processor / print shop in the New England area, they use a language called PL/B which is pretty close. Most of the senior crew are all retired now, and the place is practically falling apart.
msh 3y ago
I have worked for (or as a consultant) for several big european (retail) banks. They have all had a big cobol code base.
skissane 3y ago
> Almost all of this seems untrue (except maybe the last one). I’ve worked at a variety of banks from front to back office across securities and private wealth. I’ve seen plenty of company-specific languages, plenty of C++, Java, perl, python but have literally never encountered a COBOL system. Two of Australia's four biggest banks – ANZ and Westpac – have historically run CSC Hogan. I don't know what they are doing as of today, but according to media reports ANZ was still using it in 2016 [0] and Westpac in 2019 [1]. Hogan is based on z/OS, CICS, COBOL. Not only is the vendor-supplied product code in COBOL, any customer ends up having to write lots of their own COBOL code to add customisations necessary for their environment. CSC – now DXC – has a replacement platform, Celiriti, which runs on a more mainstream tech stack (Java/Linux/etc), and I believe both were looking at migrating to that eventually. Australia's 6th largest bank, Suncorp, uses Hogan too, having in 2020 abandoned an attempt to replace it with Oracle Banking Platform. [3] [0] https://www.itnews.com.au/news/core-banking-overhaul-still-off-the-agenda-at-anz-bank-429979 https://www.itnews.com.au/news/core-banking-overhaul-still-o... [1] https://www.itnews.com.au/news/westpacs-100m-core-network-rebuild-takes-shape-519940 https://www.itnews.com.au/news/westpacs-100m-core-network-re... [2] https://www.itnews.com.au/news/suncorp-to-modernise-its-hogan-core-banking-system-574617 https://www.itnews.com.au/news/suncorp-to-modernise-its-hoga... [3] https://www.itnews.com.au/news/suncorps-oracle-core-finally-junked-leaves-90m-crater-547982 https://www.itnews.com.au/news/suncorps-oracle-core-finally-...
- xiaodai 3y ago
  [flagged]
- worthless-trash 3y ago
  They still are hiring for it, thats for sure.
- mickael-kerjean 3y ago
  Same here, in Australia I did a contract with QBE insurance, COBOL was what was running the show and I know of several people in banking where it's the same
- RGBCube 3y ago
PeterStuer 3y ago
I have consulted in big banks and there's plenty of COBOL (and RPG) still around in the core.
century19 3y ago
As the other comments say, this is not a myth. Of course banks use other languages and try and put as many work processes as possible outside the core system, but core COBOL systems is very common. Have worked at a couple.
soco 3y ago
I worked and keep working for a couple of biggest insurers. Enough COBOL around to make management sweat.
apaprocki 3y ago
It also appears in ways that you don’t expect. PeopleSoft is COBOL and they have like 25k+ customers. As we write, Oracle is trying to sell more COBOL into the enterprise in 2023 :)
- skissane 3y ago
  > PeopleSoft is COBOL The majority of PeopleSoft isn't COBOL – it is written in PeopleCode, a language PeopleSoft invented themselves (like SAP's ABAP), and I believe some newer components use Java too. The COBOL is mainly used for batch processing and offline reporting in some of the older modules, such as Payroll. Many of the newer modules don't use any COBOL at all.
  - NikolaNovak 3y ago
    Right. Front is people code. Batch and heavy processing may be application engine or sqr, or COBOL. PeopleSoft HCM is their biggest product I think, and a lot of core (or old, if you prefer :) processes are in COBOL. Still getting updated, still actively used to pay many many millions of people in North America.
NikolaNovak 3y ago
I've never worked in a bank. But I've been a sysadmin for a number of payroll and finances systems and some have run on COBOL. In particular a lot of PeopleSoft has key processes in COBOL. This is absolutely not obvious to anybody who is not actively working on that COBOL. Front end is a nice web Gui served by WebSphere or Weblogic. Rest of the system is enterprise Java. There's Python and RPA and all sort of fun stuff on the periphery, and obscure proprietary languages such as PeopleCode and ApplicationEngine (no not that one :) and God help me sqr. But core business logic that nobody touches directly except when they must is COBOL. Oracle still spits out PeopleSoft stuff in COBOL, used by thousands of companies (they're not actively selling PeopleSoft anymore, focusing on HCM cloud etc, but that too still happens) Note, fwiw, while I personally happen to work for ibm, little to none of the COBOL I've encountered was running on ibm mainframes or even on ibm COBOL compiler. Most of it was third party software running on microfocus COBOL compiler... On windows and *nix. Obviously just an anecdote like yours, but COBOL is definitely out there and not just on ibm mainframes:)
dotxlem 3y ago
You’ve never encountered COBOL because it sounds like you’ve never worked on the part which is usually referred to as the “core banking system”. Many legacy banking cores are still in use and the legacy ones are all written in COBOL.
- samarthr1 3y ago
  You will be happy to know that in India at least, the big CBS (finacle) is in poorly written Java instead. Made on least cost basis, protected by a moat a central bank wide, and maintained by 10k /year engineers, it is truly a marvel that our country's banks even run. The company i intern at has built its entire business off moving as much functionality outside finacle. A small modification of changing a label's font, can cost a full 100-150 usd. Never mind adding in custom features and the like, which costs a pretty penny if you use infy.

Mashimo 3y ago

A friend of mine worked for a bank, or rather part of a bank that did the payroll I think. And they where working on converting all the COBOL to java a few years back. From personal experience when I got a loan approved I noticed the bank dude had to log into a terminal based system via remote login to a VM. But I can't say for certain that it was written in COBOL. But certainly written around or before the 90s.

nubinetwork 3y ago

Maybe not COBOL, but I know someone who works for a payment processor / print shop in the New England area, they use a language called PL/B which is pretty close. Most of the senior crew are all retired now, and the place is practically falling apart.

msh 3y ago

I have worked for (or as a consultant) for several big european (retail) banks. They have all had a big cobol code base.

skissane 3y ago

> Almost all of this seems untrue (except maybe the last one). I’ve worked at a variety of banks from front to back office across securities and private wealth. I’ve seen plenty of company-specific languages, plenty of C++, Java, perl, python but have literally never encountered a COBOL system. Two of Australia's four biggest banks – ANZ and Westpac – have historically run CSC Hogan. I don't know what they are doing as of today, but according to media reports ANZ was still using it in 2016 [0] and Westpac in 2019 [1]. Hogan is based on z/OS, CICS, COBOL. Not only is the vendor-supplied product code in COBOL, any customer ends up having to write lots of their own COBOL code to add customisations necessary for their environment. CSC – now DXC – has a replacement platform, Celiriti, which runs on a more mainstream tech stack (Java/Linux/etc), and I believe both were looking at migrating to that eventually. Australia's 6th largest bank, Suncorp, uses Hogan too, having in 2020 abandoned an attempt to replace it with Oracle Banking Platform. [3] [0] https://www.itnews.com.au/news/core-banking-overhaul-still-off-the-agenda-at-anz-bank-429979 https://www.itnews.com.au/news/core-banking-overhaul-still-o... [1] https://www.itnews.com.au/news/westpacs-100m-core-network-rebuild-takes-shape-519940 https://www.itnews.com.au/news/westpacs-100m-core-network-re... [2] https://www.itnews.com.au/news/suncorp-to-modernise-its-hogan-core-banking-system-574617 https://www.itnews.com.au/news/suncorp-to-modernise-its-hoga... [3] https://www.itnews.com.au/news/suncorps-oracle-core-finally-junked-leaves-90m-crater-547982 https://www.itnews.com.au/news/suncorps-oracle-core-finally-...

xiaodai 3y ago
[flagged]
worthless-trash 3y ago
They still are hiring for it, thats for sure.
mickael-kerjean 3y ago
Same here, in Australia I did a contract with QBE insurance, COBOL was what was running the show and I know of several people in banking where it's the same
RGBCube 3y ago

PeterStuer 3y ago

I have consulted in big banks and there's plenty of COBOL (and RPG) still around in the core.

century19 3y ago

As the other comments say, this is not a myth. Of course banks use other languages and try and put as many work processes as possible outside the core system, but core COBOL systems is very common. Have worked at a couple.

soco 3y ago

I worked and keep working for a couple of biggest insurers. Enough COBOL around to make management sweat.

apaprocki 3y ago

It also appears in ways that you don’t expect. PeopleSoft is COBOL and they have like 25k+ customers. As we write, Oracle is trying to sell more COBOL into the enterprise in 2023 :)

skissane 3y ago
> PeopleSoft is COBOL The majority of PeopleSoft isn't COBOL – it is written in PeopleCode, a language PeopleSoft invented themselves (like SAP's ABAP), and I believe some newer components use Java too. The COBOL is mainly used for batch processing and offline reporting in some of the older modules, such as Payroll. Many of the newer modules don't use any COBOL at all.
- NikolaNovak 3y ago
  Right. Front is people code. Batch and heavy processing may be application engine or sqr, or COBOL. PeopleSoft HCM is their biggest product I think, and a lot of core (or old, if you prefer :) processes are in COBOL. Still getting updated, still actively used to pay many many millions of people in North America.

NikolaNovak 3y ago

I've never worked in a bank. But I've been a sysadmin for a number of payroll and finances systems and some have run on COBOL. In particular a lot of PeopleSoft has key processes in COBOL. This is absolutely not obvious to anybody who is not actively working on that COBOL. Front end is a nice web Gui served by WebSphere or Weblogic. Rest of the system is enterprise Java. There's Python and RPA and all sort of fun stuff on the periphery, and obscure proprietary languages such as PeopleCode and ApplicationEngine (no not that one :) and God help me sqr. But core business logic that nobody touches directly except when they must is COBOL. Oracle still spits out PeopleSoft stuff in COBOL, used by thousands of companies (they're not actively selling PeopleSoft anymore, focusing on HCM cloud etc, but that too still happens) Note, fwiw, while I personally happen to work for ibm, little to none of the COBOL I've encountered was running on ibm mainframes or even on ibm COBOL compiler. Most of it was third party software running on microfocus COBOL compiler... On windows and *nix. Obviously just an anecdote like yours, but COBOL is definitely out there and not just on ibm mainframes:)

dotxlem 3y ago

You’ve never encountered COBOL because it sounds like you’ve never worked on the part which is usually referred to as the “core banking system”. Many legacy banking cores are still in use and the legacy ones are all written in COBOL.

samarthr1 3y ago
You will be happy to know that in India at least, the big CBS (finacle) is in poorly written Java instead. Made on least cost basis, protected by a moat a central bank wide, and maintained by 10k /year engineers, it is truly a marvel that our country's banks even run. The company i intern at has built its entire business off moving as much functionality outside finacle. A small modification of changing a label's font, can cost a full 100-150 usd. Never mind adding in custom features and the like, which costs a pretty penny if you use infy.