6 ms·

Ask HN: Do average tech companies care about felony probation for SWE?

I know some will and I assume some won’t, but if anyone has any insight into how most companies feel about hiring a software engineer with a felony probation please share

SoftTalker 3y ago
Do average tech employees care about criminal misconduct by their employers?
- tptacek 3y ago
  No.
tmn 3y ago
I would assume specifics are important
armatav 3y ago
It will come up during background check. I personally wouldn’t give a shit as long as the person was hard working in a consistent manner. Didn’t they already pay their “debt to society” by serving whatever their sentence was?
- WheatMillington 3y ago
  You don't consider that a dishonesty conviction may speak to character? Are you really saying that this wouldn't even be a factor to you?
  - armatav 3y ago
    If the dudes suffered society’s prescribed punishment he should be free from judgement. That’s kind of the entire point of justice. And he’s applying for a job in literally one of the two types of jobs that you can set up total informational and access control. How many decades before he should be considered normal again, or is he tainted for the rest of his life because of your “dishonesty conviction speaking to character”?
jvanderbot 3y ago
I can't say if they truly care, but they can't a priori DQ you just for that. When I was a hiring manager, it wouldn't have bothered me a bit, assuming the interview went well, it had been a while, they weren't applying for a classified task / job, and their explanation satisfied everyone. It would have been a factor, but not the only factor. Regardless, you can only apply with your background, so all the usual advice applies: interview well, practice, be confident, be deep, have good stories, questions, and talking points ready. The extra advice for folks with a record (like myself) is to prep a good explanation. You'll do fine.
- owenmarshall 3y ago
  > but they can't DQ you just for that This depends entirely on jurisdiction and company policy.
  - jvanderbot 3y ago
    You're right, but in CA, it's law.
    - owenmarshall 3y ago
      Not quite. In CA your potential employer can’t ask about criminal history before extending an offer. After the offer is extended that’s off the table: they absolutely can (and will!) run a background check, and any convictions are assessed against the offered job. A SWE might get a job with a drug conviction they picked up a decade ago. They might have their offer pulled due to a recent conviction for embezzlement.
      - jvanderbot 3y ago
        You're absolutely right, nothing in my original comment was meant to contradict that. Add poor HN wording to my long list of personal flaws.
        owenmarshall 3y ago
pfannkuchen 3y ago
If it’s related to violence or theft I think they would care. If it’s drug possession I don’t think they would care. If it’s selling drugs and you were successful at it then you’re a great fit! (Assuming the company is media, social media or gaming related)
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  Possession would rarely be prosecuted as a felony.
G4BB3R 3y ago
How would they know this information? Maybe in my country this isn't a thing before getting a job.
- ovao 3y ago
  In the U.S., criminal background checks are standard practice.
  - owenmarshall 3y ago
    And that’s the tip of the iceberg. Tons of jobs in the US - especially those dealing directly with finances - pull your credit too, with the justification that people with bad credit are riskier and more likely to steal from the company.
    - listenallyall 3y ago
      or just, you know, bad with finance... which seems relevant for a job "dealing directly with finances"
      - deprecative 3y ago
        [dead]
      - zarzavat 3y ago
        Or perhaps they had an unexpected medical bill. Despite the talk of the American dream, the US system seems intent on keeping people down when they are down.
        listenallyall 3y ago
        It would seem that experience, how you successfully budgeted around a sudden, significant, unexpected expense (possibly combined with loss of income), would be something you'd highlight and use as evidence of your qualifications. Companies want people who can handle the unexpected, especially in finance, since it happens so often. Hiding it, so that's it's only revealed during a credit check, is the problem.
d2049 3y ago
Is it lawful for an employer to factor in criminal history when choosing employees? Asking for my own education.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- austin-cheney 3y ago
  Absolutely. Criminal history is a valid and lawful criteria of discrimination. The tolerance varies by industry. For example the finance industry will have 0 tolerance.
- pseudo0 3y ago
  It depends on the state. Some have "ban the box" laws that prohibit asking about convictions until a conditional job offer has been extended. Given that (unexpunged) convictions are public record though, it's pretty easy for them to find out if they bother to run a check and decide another candidate is a better fit.
  - deprecative 3y ago
    To add on one anecdotal data point, I've never worked anywhere that didn't do a criminal background check. If you have a public record expect that everyone you work with knows.
paxys 3y ago
Most tech companies have to care even if they don't want to. Standard contracts with clients as well as industry regulations (like SOC, ISMS, PIMS and more) all enforce clean background checks for all employees.
- owenmarshall 3y ago
  IMO this is one of your biggest hurdles to clear. About a decade ago I had a coworker whose access was suddenly pulled from all prod systems. The reason? Someone with his (quite common) name had a warrant issued in Oklahoma. We weren’t anywhere near Oklahoma and he’d never even set foot in Oklahoma. But our company had a few state contracts that required clean background checks & periodic rescreenings of employees, they checked him, and his name matched. It took a few weeks to clear it up, during which time he couldn’t do his job. Most contracts aren’t likely going to be that painful but you’ll have a hard time going near any compliance regime with a criminal background, which narrows your options.
gregjor 3y ago
Depends on the nature of the conviction and the employer. Theft, fraud, sex offenses, violent crimes, drugs will likely count against the candidate. Companies don't "feel" any specific way since companies don't "feel" or have the same policies. How much a record counts against a candidate will depend on company policies (both formal and informal), and the judgment of the interviewers. I know someone with a felony fraud conviction who can't get a job at any financial company (the business domain he has most experience in). Instant disqualifier. Not all employers run background checks, but they may ask about felony or even misdemeanor convictions and if you lie and they later find out they can fire for that reason. A candidate with a record may get passed over with the employer giving some other reason, to protect themselves from lawsuits. In other words the candidate may get told "We hired a more qualified candidate" when they actually got rejected because of a criminal record.
- listenallyall 3y ago
  > if you lie and they later find out they can fire for that reason There is no standard "background check." A criminal history might come up, might not. You have to decide what's the best strategy... disclose it now while I'm competing against multiple other candidates with clean records and no solid internal relationships, or not say anything and take my chances, that maybe someone may discover it in the future and my ability, once I've become a well-liked, important contributor to the company, to be able to explain it away.
  - gregjor 3y ago
    Some employers run pre-employment or post-offer background checks. Those checks vary but will generally include felony convictions. If the employer does get a background check do they are supposed to get the candidate's permission, but criminal convictions and sex offender registrations can show up in Google searches. Some jurisdictions don't allow pre-employment background checks. In any case the candidate should know if the hiring process includes a criminal background check. Some employers simply ask (usually on an information form) if the candidate has any convictions. A candidate doesn't have to volunteer information, but should have an explanation for a criminal record should that come up. If asked the candidate shouldn't lie because lying to get a job usually gives the employer grounds to terminate later with cause (unless you get elected to Congress).
chasd00 3y ago
I doubt a human cares that much or at least takes the circumstances into account. However, insurance and other policies required to make business possible probably care a lot.
throwawayflambe 3y ago
[dead]
Washuu 3y ago
It very much depends. I have been with a company that found and hired someone because they became known through a felony conviction related to hacking.(They had a specific set of skills we needed related to the hacking conviction.) ...But ultimately we couldn't complete the hiring process since there was a bank on the first floor and the building owners would have terminated our lease if they found out they worked there.
- aorloff 3y ago
  That’s what contract agencies are for
Paul-Craft 3y ago
I posted this in a reply thread below, but here it is again as a top level comment for OP's visibility: if it was 7 or more years ago, it may never even show up on a background check: https://www.goodhire.com/resources/articles/how-far-back-do-background-checks-go/ https://www.goodhire.com/resources/articles/how-far-back-do-...
WheelsAtLarge 3y ago
I worked for a company that hired a tech as he was being prosecuted for company equipment theft for a previous company. I think it had to do with him selling unused and outdated equipment on ebay. Anyway, he got the job and there was never any secrecy about it. Not sure why they did it but obviously it was not a big deal. I guess it all comes down to what the felony is.
hnbear 3y ago
Depending on the role and company there might be legal limitations, regardless of hiring manager views on the crime. For example, working at a software firm focused on trading and financial systems we had contractual requirements to never send felons onto customer sites. So for sales or support/engineering roles given that traveling to customer sites was part of the role description, that limited employees we would have otherwise hired. Also, all the regulated financial's I've worked at have background checks at onboarding, and then annual compliance reviews where you have to attest to not having felonies in a range of related areas. You can't manage money if you've been convicted of stealing it.
schwartzworld 3y ago
I can't tell you if they'll care, but I saw a guy not get hired because he didn't disclose it up front and then it came up in the background check.

I know some will and I assume some won’t, but if anyone has any insight into how most companies feel about hiring a software engineer with a felony probation please share

SoftTalker 3y ago

Do average tech employees care about criminal misconduct by their employers?

tptacek 3y ago
No.

tmn 3y ago

I would assume specifics are important

armatav 3y ago

It will come up during background check. I personally wouldn’t give a shit as long as the person was hard working in a consistent manner. Didn’t they already pay their “debt to society” by serving whatever their sentence was?

WheatMillington 3y ago
You don't consider that a dishonesty conviction may speak to character? Are you really saying that this wouldn't even be a factor to you?
- armatav 3y ago
  If the dudes suffered society’s prescribed punishment he should be free from judgement. That’s kind of the entire point of justice. And he’s applying for a job in literally one of the two types of jobs that you can set up total informational and access control. How many decades before he should be considered normal again, or is he tainted for the rest of his life because of your “dishonesty conviction speaking to character”?

jvanderbot 3y ago

I can't say if they truly care, but they can't a priori DQ you just for that. When I was a hiring manager, it wouldn't have bothered me a bit, assuming the interview went well, it had been a while, they weren't applying for a classified task / job, and their explanation satisfied everyone. It would have been a factor, but not the only factor. Regardless, you can only apply with your background, so all the usual advice applies: interview well, practice, be confident, be deep, have good stories, questions, and talking points ready. The extra advice for folks with a record (like myself) is to prep a good explanation. You'll do fine.

owenmarshall 3y ago
> but they can't DQ you just for that This depends entirely on jurisdiction and company policy.
- jvanderbot 3y ago
  You're right, but in CA, it's law.
  - owenmarshall 3y ago
    Not quite. In CA your potential employer can’t ask about criminal history before extending an offer. After the offer is extended that’s off the table: they absolutely can (and will!) run a background check, and any convictions are assessed against the offered job. A SWE might get a job with a drug conviction they picked up a decade ago. They might have their offer pulled due to a recent conviction for embezzlement.
    - jvanderbot 3y ago
      You're absolutely right, nothing in my original comment was meant to contradict that. Add poor HN wording to my long list of personal flaws.
      - owenmarshall 3y ago

pfannkuchen 3y ago

If it’s related to violence or theft I think they would care. If it’s drug possession I don’t think they would care. If it’s selling drugs and you were successful at it then you’re a great fit! (Assuming the company is media, social media or gaming related)

SoftTalker 3y ago
Possession would rarely be prosecuted as a felony.

G4BB3R 3y ago

How would they know this information? Maybe in my country this isn't a thing before getting a job.

ovao 3y ago
In the U.S., criminal background checks are standard practice.
- owenmarshall 3y ago
  And that’s the tip of the iceberg. Tons of jobs in the US - especially those dealing directly with finances - pull your credit too, with the justification that people with bad credit are riskier and more likely to steal from the company.
  - listenallyall 3y ago
    or just, you know, bad with finance... which seems relevant for a job "dealing directly with finances"
    - deprecative 3y ago
      [dead]
    - zarzavat 3y ago
      Or perhaps they had an unexpected medical bill. Despite the talk of the American dream, the US system seems intent on keeping people down when they are down.
      - listenallyall 3y ago
        It would seem that experience, how you successfully budgeted around a sudden, significant, unexpected expense (possibly combined with loss of income), would be something you'd highlight and use as evidence of your qualifications. Companies want people who can handle the unexpected, especially in finance, since it happens so often. Hiding it, so that's it's only revealed during a credit check, is the problem.

d2049 3y ago

Is it lawful for an employer to factor in criminal history when choosing employees? Asking for my own education.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
austin-cheney 3y ago
Absolutely. Criminal history is a valid and lawful criteria of discrimination. The tolerance varies by industry. For example the finance industry will have 0 tolerance.
pseudo0 3y ago
It depends on the state. Some have "ban the box" laws that prohibit asking about convictions until a conditional job offer has been extended. Given that (unexpunged) convictions are public record though, it's pretty easy for them to find out if they bother to run a check and decide another candidate is a better fit.
- deprecative 3y ago
  To add on one anecdotal data point, I've never worked anywhere that didn't do a criminal background check. If you have a public record expect that everyone you work with knows.

paxys 3y ago

Most tech companies have to care even if they don't want to. Standard contracts with clients as well as industry regulations (like SOC, ISMS, PIMS and more) all enforce clean background checks for all employees.

owenmarshall 3y ago
IMO this is one of your biggest hurdles to clear. About a decade ago I had a coworker whose access was suddenly pulled from all prod systems. The reason? Someone with his (quite common) name had a warrant issued in Oklahoma. We weren’t anywhere near Oklahoma and he’d never even set foot in Oklahoma. But our company had a few state contracts that required clean background checks & periodic rescreenings of employees, they checked him, and his name matched. It took a few weeks to clear it up, during which time he couldn’t do his job. Most contracts aren’t likely going to be that painful but you’ll have a hard time going near any compliance regime with a criminal background, which narrows your options.

gregjor 3y ago

Depends on the nature of the conviction and the employer. Theft, fraud, sex offenses, violent crimes, drugs will likely count against the candidate. Companies don't "feel" any specific way since companies don't "feel" or have the same policies. How much a record counts against a candidate will depend on company policies (both formal and informal), and the judgment of the interviewers. I know someone with a felony fraud conviction who can't get a job at any financial company (the business domain he has most experience in). Instant disqualifier. Not all employers run background checks, but they may ask about felony or even misdemeanor convictions and if you lie and they later find out they can fire for that reason. A candidate with a record may get passed over with the employer giving some other reason, to protect themselves from lawsuits. In other words the candidate may get told "We hired a more qualified candidate" when they actually got rejected because of a criminal record.

listenallyall 3y ago
> if you lie and they later find out they can fire for that reason There is no standard "background check." A criminal history might come up, might not. You have to decide what's the best strategy... disclose it now while I'm competing against multiple other candidates with clean records and no solid internal relationships, or not say anything and take my chances, that maybe someone may discover it in the future and my ability, once I've become a well-liked, important contributor to the company, to be able to explain it away.
- gregjor 3y ago
  Some employers run pre-employment or post-offer background checks. Those checks vary but will generally include felony convictions. If the employer does get a background check do they are supposed to get the candidate's permission, but criminal convictions and sex offender registrations can show up in Google searches. Some jurisdictions don't allow pre-employment background checks. In any case the candidate should know if the hiring process includes a criminal background check. Some employers simply ask (usually on an information form) if the candidate has any convictions. A candidate doesn't have to volunteer information, but should have an explanation for a criminal record should that come up. If asked the candidate shouldn't lie because lying to get a job usually gives the employer grounds to terminate later with cause (unless you get elected to Congress).

chasd00 3y ago

I doubt a human cares that much or at least takes the circumstances into account. However, insurance and other policies required to make business possible probably care a lot.

throwawayflambe 3y ago

[dead]

Washuu 3y ago

It very much depends. I have been with a company that found and hired someone because they became known through a felony conviction related to hacking.(They had a specific set of skills we needed related to the hacking conviction.) ...But ultimately we couldn't complete the hiring process since there was a bank on the first floor and the building owners would have terminated our lease if they found out they worked there.

aorloff 3y ago
That’s what contract agencies are for

Paul-Craft 3y ago

I posted this in a reply thread below, but here it is again as a top level comment for OP's visibility: if it was 7 or more years ago, it may never even show up on a background check: https://www.goodhire.com/resources/articles/how-far-back-do-background-checks-go/ https://www.goodhire.com/resources/articles/how-far-back-do-...

WheelsAtLarge 3y ago

I worked for a company that hired a tech as he was being prosecuted for company equipment theft for a previous company. I think it had to do with him selling unused and outdated equipment on ebay. Anyway, he got the job and there was never any secrecy about it. Not sure why they did it but obviously it was not a big deal. I guess it all comes down to what the felony is.

hnbear 3y ago

Depending on the role and company there might be legal limitations, regardless of hiring manager views on the crime. For example, working at a software firm focused on trading and financial systems we had contractual requirements to never send felons onto customer sites. So for sales or support/engineering roles given that traveling to customer sites was part of the role description, that limited employees we would have otherwise hired. Also, all the regulated financial's I've worked at have background checks at onboarding, and then annual compliance reviews where you have to attest to not having felonies in a range of related areas. You can't manage money if you've been convicted of stealing it.

schwartzworld 3y ago

I can't tell you if they'll care, but I saw a guy not get hired because he didn't disclose it up front and then it came up in the background check.