4 ms·

Perhaps medical implants should be legally required to have open-source hardware and software.

by TazeTSchnitzel 3y ago

skyyler 3y ago
Could something be done about "planned abandonment"? It's too tempting a profit source.
- Izmaki 3y ago
  Have the authorities change the requirements for EOL. Hearing Health companies just follow the instructions, pretty much...
ekianjo 3y ago
"security" by obscurity is the golden standard here. You don't want to see the massive incompetence at play if everything was open.
- bombcar 3y ago
  I think, as a society, we do want to see it, slowly, over time. Perhaps requiring they be open sourced after a point in time or to be eligible for medicaid, etc. Maybe only new ones - but eventually we need to clean this up; as we're creating a digital superfund site each time, only covered up by people disposing of them or dying.
  - rektide 3y ago
    Allowing/affording society some ability to come in, to see, to form opinions seems so elemental to progress in general. Pay no attention to the man behind thr curtain forever & ever, everywhere, does not seem like a great strategy for keeping & maintaining a society.
- bitwize 3y ago
  Gonna go out on a limb and guess that it's enough to send shivers down anyone who's heard the Therac-25 story...
- rektide 3y ago
  confidence through obscurity? actually a semi interesting argument, which seems likely to be widely accurate in many places.
- Izmaki 3y ago
  Auditing is a mess more so than security by obscurity. Source: employee.
RajT88 3y ago
It's interesting, because in some fashion the private industry has a practice which is designed to prevent against software obsolescence or the failure of their vendor company: Code Escrow. I would love to see a nonprofit/NGO/TLA dedicated to getting such defunct tech open sourced. I am sure lots of great stuff gets archived in hopes of selling/licensing the IP later, and then it never sees the light of day again. To the extent such things get archived at all. This came up in another thread here the other day in fact. And before the same guy chimes in to suggest that governments ruin everything they take on because of corruption: You're still wrong, and you can take that defeatism elsewhere.
ajsnigrutin 3y ago
And spare parts and built for repairability. Batteries are practically guaranteed to degrade after a few hundred charge cycles, and totally fail after a few hundred more... with daily charging, that's a timeline of a few years. And with all the breakthroughs in technology, we've gone from replacable batteries everywhere, even with waterproof devices, to impossible or very-hard-to replace batteries, even in large, non-waterproof stuff such as laptops.
sigstoat 3y ago
open source doesn’t make modifications free. who is going to take the liability of distributing modifications for other people’s medical devices even with a “no warranty expressed or implied” license? who is going to load “no warranty expressed or implied” software onto their kids brain implant?
m00x 3y ago
A much better idea is to have the implant part require a standard connector, while the outside part could be upgraded later on. Medical devices take a TON of money to develop and license, so companies aren't going to open source them.
- Izmaki 3y ago
  That is exactly how they work. The implant is incredibly "dumb" and very future proof.
  - elzbardico 3y ago
    Exactly. The problem is that the processor is absurdly expensive, up to 10 thousand dollars range in the US if you self-pay.
    - Izmaki 3y ago
      ...and the manufacturing price is so low it makes me physically sad to think about.
  - m00x 3y ago
    Nice, thanks for the info!
pie_flavor 3y ago
R&D is financed by the profiteering. Having companies legally on the hook for abandoning their clients is a great idea, but demanding that they allow anyone else to manufacture their design is a great way of ensuring vastly fewer designs.
- elzbardico 3y ago
  In practice, a lot, and I mean, A LOT of research and development in health is done by universities under government grants from the NIH. Like this https://twin-cities.umn.edu/news-events/university-minnesota-lead-97-million-nih-grant-improve-hearing-restoration https://twin-cities.umn.edu/news-events/university-minnesota...
  - pie_flavor 3y ago
    Universities make good idea guys, but they're not so good at turning them into products. The foundational R is done at universities, and then sold to companies so they can do the specific R and all of the D.
alvarezbjm-hn 3y ago
Yes, it would be convenient to treat prostetic devices as drugs and allow generics to be manufactured.
Izmaki 3y ago
A lot of OSS is used in modern hearing aids, actually. A hearing aid is closer to a small computer these days than you'd think.
- ksaj 3y ago
  They fully are computers. I wear hearing aids, and for example, one setting will glom onto voices in the stereo field and track them so the voice remains clear if they are moving around, while damping everything else. They do quite a lot, actually. They typically have 4 settings that the wearer can opt for. Some are "smarter" than others. The one I described is one of the more advanced functions.

Perhaps medical implants should be legally required to have open-source hardware and software.

skyyler 3y ago

Could something be done about "planned abandonment"? It's too tempting a profit source.

Izmaki 3y ago
Have the authorities change the requirements for EOL. Hearing Health companies just follow the instructions, pretty much...

ekianjo 3y ago

"security" by obscurity is the golden standard here. You don't want to see the massive incompetence at play if everything was open.

bombcar 3y ago
I think, as a society, we do want to see it, slowly, over time. Perhaps requiring they be open sourced after a point in time or to be eligible for medicaid, etc. Maybe only new ones - but eventually we need to clean this up; as we're creating a digital superfund site each time, only covered up by people disposing of them or dying.
- rektide 3y ago
  Allowing/affording society some ability to come in, to see, to form opinions seems so elemental to progress in general. Pay no attention to the man behind thr curtain forever & ever, everywhere, does not seem like a great strategy for keeping & maintaining a society.
bitwize 3y ago
Gonna go out on a limb and guess that it's enough to send shivers down anyone who's heard the Therac-25 story...
rektide 3y ago
confidence through obscurity? actually a semi interesting argument, which seems likely to be widely accurate in many places.
Izmaki 3y ago
Auditing is a mess more so than security by obscurity. Source: employee.

RajT88 3y ago

It's interesting, because in some fashion the private industry has a practice which is designed to prevent against software obsolescence or the failure of their vendor company: Code Escrow. I would love to see a nonprofit/NGO/TLA dedicated to getting such defunct tech open sourced. I am sure lots of great stuff gets archived in hopes of selling/licensing the IP later, and then it never sees the light of day again. To the extent such things get archived at all. This came up in another thread here the other day in fact. And before the same guy chimes in to suggest that governments ruin everything they take on because of corruption: You're still wrong, and you can take that defeatism elsewhere.

ajsnigrutin 3y ago

And spare parts and built for repairability. Batteries are practically guaranteed to degrade after a few hundred charge cycles, and totally fail after a few hundred more... with daily charging, that's a timeline of a few years. And with all the breakthroughs in technology, we've gone from replacable batteries everywhere, even with waterproof devices, to impossible or very-hard-to replace batteries, even in large, non-waterproof stuff such as laptops.

sigstoat 3y ago

open source doesn’t make modifications free. who is going to take the liability of distributing modifications for other people’s medical devices even with a “no warranty expressed or implied” license? who is going to load “no warranty expressed or implied” software onto their kids brain implant?

m00x 3y ago

A much better idea is to have the implant part require a standard connector, while the outside part could be upgraded later on. Medical devices take a TON of money to develop and license, so companies aren't going to open source them.

Izmaki 3y ago
That is exactly how they work. The implant is incredibly "dumb" and very future proof.
- elzbardico 3y ago
  Exactly. The problem is that the processor is absurdly expensive, up to 10 thousand dollars range in the US if you self-pay.
  - Izmaki 3y ago
    ...and the manufacturing price is so low it makes me physically sad to think about.
- m00x 3y ago
  Nice, thanks for the info!

pie_flavor 3y ago

R&D is financed by the profiteering. Having companies legally on the hook for abandoning their clients is a great idea, but demanding that they allow anyone else to manufacture their design is a great way of ensuring vastly fewer designs.

elzbardico 3y ago
In practice, a lot, and I mean, A LOT of research and development in health is done by universities under government grants from the NIH. Like this https://twin-cities.umn.edu/news-events/university-minnesota-lead-97-million-nih-grant-improve-hearing-restoration https://twin-cities.umn.edu/news-events/university-minnesota...
- pie_flavor 3y ago
  Universities make good idea guys, but they're not so good at turning them into products. The foundational R is done at universities, and then sold to companies so they can do the specific R and all of the D.

alvarezbjm-hn 3y ago

Yes, it would be convenient to treat prostetic devices as drugs and allow generics to be manufactured.

Izmaki 3y ago

A lot of OSS is used in modern hearing aids, actually. A hearing aid is closer to a small computer these days than you'd think.

ksaj 3y ago
They fully are computers. I wear hearing aids, and for example, one setting will glom onto voices in the stereo field and track them so the voice remains clear if they are moving around, while damping everything else. They do quite a lot, actually. They typically have 4 settings that the wearer can opt for. Some are "smarter" than others. The one I described is one of the more advanced functions.