7 ms·

Delusional. It would be no contest. Elephants are terrain-limited herbivores with limited manual dexterity and zero technology. They must spend most of their w

Delusional. It would be no contest. Elephants are terrain-limited herbivores with limited manual dexterity and zero technology. They must spend most of their waking hours foraging. We are omnivorous masters of terrain, endurance, fire, weapons, ropes, rock quarrying, deforestation, and deception. We can fill our stomachs in 5 minutes and spend the rest of the day waging war.

DubiousPusher 3y ago
> We can fill our stomachs in 5 minutes That is not at all now it has gone for most of human history. Feudalism and its ancient world precursors, an entire religious-social-economic system of vassalage, was necessary concentrate the tiny bits of surplus food into long standing specialized military forces.
- byby 3y ago
  Yeah but this was definitely achieve well before 200 years. Armies existed since the dawn of civilization. We are talking B.C. dates.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    Most armies where farmers who did a little bit of training in their village in the off season. They would be called up for specific battles, given a couple weeks training and then off to battle, those who survived went back home. Very few societies could afford a large standing army. There would be one or two village watchmen to keep watch over night. The king might have a dozen guards that were well trained. The bulk of the army was farmers conscripted a few weeks before at need, and sent back home when done. The economies just couldn't support more when 95% of the total human population had to be a farmer just to grow enough food. There were exceptions. The Romans did manage to hold large standing armies, but they were exceptions.
- Balero 3y ago
  So people can fill in 5 mins, whilst the others work to do this. Elephants can't digest enough calorie rich food to be able to do this. They individually have to spend longer eating.
  - ant6n 3y ago
    Yet war elephants are a thing.
    - gibspaulding 3y ago
      Apparently specifically because of the food issue they weren't generally worth the trouble. ACOUP has a good post about it [1]. TL/DR: For the amount of fodder and manpower you need for one elephant, you can have a lot of traditional horse calvary. [1] https://acoup.blog/2019/08/02/collections-war-elephants-part-ii-elephants-against-wolves/ https://acoup.blog/2019/08/02/collections-war-elephants-part...
- Ensorceled 3y ago
  We've had standing armies for almost 3000 years. So, for most of "history".
  - DubiousPusher 3y ago
    > standing armies Armies yes. Standing, not so much no. Human history is 100,000-200,000 years. That would be < 3% of human history. To do this, humans had to invent pre-feudal client/vassal networks of specialized food producer and warrior classes. This for the very reason that most humans had to spend most of their time in the act of producing food.
    - numtel 3y ago
      History is considered to be since the invention of writing. (<10000 years) Anything before that is pre-history.
- starbase 3y ago
  We've always been able to eat that quickly. If you're suggesting there wouldn't be enough food to feed an army of humans, need I remind you that elephants are made of meat?
sampo 3y ago
Yet, humans lost the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emu_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emu_War
- njarboe 3y ago
  If the Emu's were killing humans and livestock instead of crops the outcome would likely have been different. See grizzly bears and wolves in the continental US.
- Footkerchief 3y ago
  In case anyone takes this as a serious data point, the Emu War involved exactly three soldiers and two guns.
  - tourmalinetaco 3y ago
    Isn’t that essentially all of Australia’s active military? And on a similar note, only 24 rabbits were needed to successfully invade and colonize Australia[0]. And despite multiple plagues over hundreds of years, they’re nowhere close to the end of their rabbit war.[1] [0] - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/23/australias-rabbit-invasion-traced-back-to-single-importation-of-24-animals-in-1859-study-finds https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/23/australi... [1] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_plagues_in_Australia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_plagues_in_Australia
    - partomniscient 3y ago
      Don't forget the cane toads. [0] From wikipedia: In June 1935, 102 cane toads (Rhinella marina, formerly ICZN Bufo marinus) were imported to Gordonvale from Hawaii, with one dying in transit due to dehydration. By March 1937, some 62,000 toadlets were bred in captivity and then released in areas around Cairns, Gordonvale, and Innisfail in northern Queensland. More toads were released around Ingham, Ayr, Mackay, and Bundaberg.[6] Releases were temporarily limited because of environmental concerns, but resumed in other areas after September 1936. Since their release, toads have rapidly multiplied. They now[when?] number over 200 million and have been known to spread diseases, thereby affecting local biodiversity.[7] Not only has the introduction of the toads has caused significant environmental detriment, but there is no evidence that they have affected the number of cane beetles which they were introduced to prey upon. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cane_toads_in_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cane_toads_in_Australia It seems modern humans are not very good at ecological balancing. Especially not in Australia. I believe the original local aboriginal people were trying to get the hang of it however before they were rudely interrupted by the colonialists. We are also omnivorous masters of destroying terrain.

DubiousPusher 3y ago

> We can fill our stomachs in 5 minutes That is not at all now it has gone for most of human history. Feudalism and its ancient world precursors, an entire religious-social-economic system of vassalage, was necessary concentrate the tiny bits of surplus food into long standing specialized military forces.

byby 3y ago
Yeah but this was definitely achieve well before 200 years. Armies existed since the dawn of civilization. We are talking B.C. dates.
- bluGill 3y ago
  Most armies where farmers who did a little bit of training in their village in the off season. They would be called up for specific battles, given a couple weeks training and then off to battle, those who survived went back home. Very few societies could afford a large standing army. There would be one or two village watchmen to keep watch over night. The king might have a dozen guards that were well trained. The bulk of the army was farmers conscripted a few weeks before at need, and sent back home when done. The economies just couldn't support more when 95% of the total human population had to be a farmer just to grow enough food. There were exceptions. The Romans did manage to hold large standing armies, but they were exceptions.
Balero 3y ago
So people can fill in 5 mins, whilst the others work to do this. Elephants can't digest enough calorie rich food to be able to do this. They individually have to spend longer eating.
- ant6n 3y ago
  Yet war elephants are a thing.
  - gibspaulding 3y ago
    Apparently specifically because of the food issue they weren't generally worth the trouble. ACOUP has a good post about it [1]. TL/DR: For the amount of fodder and manpower you need for one elephant, you can have a lot of traditional horse calvary. [1] https://acoup.blog/2019/08/02/collections-war-elephants-part-ii-elephants-against-wolves/ https://acoup.blog/2019/08/02/collections-war-elephants-part...
Ensorceled 3y ago
We've had standing armies for almost 3000 years. So, for most of "history".
- DubiousPusher 3y ago
  > standing armies Armies yes. Standing, not so much no. Human history is 100,000-200,000 years. That would be < 3% of human history. To do this, humans had to invent pre-feudal client/vassal networks of specialized food producer and warrior classes. This for the very reason that most humans had to spend most of their time in the act of producing food.
  - numtel 3y ago
    History is considered to be since the invention of writing. (<10000 years) Anything before that is pre-history.
starbase 3y ago
We've always been able to eat that quickly. If you're suggesting there wouldn't be enough food to feed an army of humans, need I remind you that elephants are made of meat?

sampo 3y ago

Yet, humans lost the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emu_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emu_War

njarboe 3y ago
If the Emu's were killing humans and livestock instead of crops the outcome would likely have been different. See grizzly bears and wolves in the continental US.
Footkerchief 3y ago
In case anyone takes this as a serious data point, the Emu War involved exactly three soldiers and two guns.
- tourmalinetaco 3y ago
  Isn’t that essentially all of Australia’s active military? And on a similar note, only 24 rabbits were needed to successfully invade and colonize Australia[0]. And despite multiple plagues over hundreds of years, they’re nowhere close to the end of their rabbit war.[1] [0] - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/23/australias-rabbit-invasion-traced-back-to-single-importation-of-24-animals-in-1859-study-finds https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/23/australi... [1] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_plagues_in_Australia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_plagues_in_Australia
  - partomniscient 3y ago
    Don't forget the cane toads. [0] From wikipedia: In June 1935, 102 cane toads (Rhinella marina, formerly ICZN Bufo marinus) were imported to Gordonvale from Hawaii, with one dying in transit due to dehydration. By March 1937, some 62,000 toadlets were bred in captivity and then released in areas around Cairns, Gordonvale, and Innisfail in northern Queensland. More toads were released around Ingham, Ayr, Mackay, and Bundaberg.[6] Releases were temporarily limited because of environmental concerns, but resumed in other areas after September 1936. Since their release, toads have rapidly multiplied. They now[when?] number over 200 million and have been known to spread diseases, thereby affecting local biodiversity.[7] Not only has the introduction of the toads has caused significant environmental detriment, but there is no evidence that they have affected the number of cane beetles which they were introduced to prey upon. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cane_toads_in_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cane_toads_in_Australia It seems modern humans are not very good at ecological balancing. Especially not in Australia. I believe the original local aboriginal people were trying to get the hang of it however before they were rudely interrupted by the colonialists. We are also omnivorous masters of destroying terrain.