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I have lost patience with articles about kids and teens and "social media" that make no attempt to define what social media is. It is no wonder parents won't s

I have lost patience with articles about kids and teens and "social media" that make no attempt to define what social media is. It is no wonder parents won't seriously - particularly when the follow up advice is "don't give your kids phones" as though it's all or nothing. Could we please get a list of social media kids are using and their relative levels of harm? If it's mostly Instagram then say Instagram and parents can uninstall that app. Is it Facebook? (I didn't think kids were using Facebook) Is it TikTok? (I'm not sure I'd classify TikTok as social media) Twitter? Reddit? Roblox? Shared google docs? Group texts? Hacker news? If we can figure this out then we can have a productive talk about kids and phones and pros and cons. Do I have to point out that phones have more uses than social media? Can kids call and text? Can they access Wikipedia? Can they play Minecraft? Can they take photos? Saying "no phones" is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It shouldn't be hard to have intelligent, thoughtful discussions on kids and the internet. For some reason, no one ever does.

im3w1l 3y ago
The reason they don't say is because they don't know.
- nineplay 3y ago
  How can they claim that this is all backed up by research if they don't know what social media is? What is the link they are finding? It doesn't feel like science. It feels like hand-waving, correlation, and anecdote.
  - im3w1l 3y ago
    Well imagine this experiment. You take 100 kids and put them into the animal enclosures at a local zoo. Some are put with sheep, some with birds, some with sharks, and lions and others with elephants. You notice that more of these kids these die than the control group that went to the zoo but outside the animal enclosures. Conclusion: wildlife dangerous. What you cannot conclude certainly is which wildlife is dangerous, there simple weren't enough participating kids. Maybe the reason the kid put with the lion lived is because lions are safe, or maybe it was because the lion was just fed. That would take a follow-up study to find. And what about kangaroos? The zoo didn't even have so we would have to try to extrapolate.
    - nineplay 3y ago
      If I'm doing the zoo study with 100 kids, I might turn it in for my 6th grade science project and enjoy my A. If I'm the Surgeon General of the United States, I'm doing the follow up study. As far as I can tell, that follow up study hasn't been done with kids and social media.
- standardUser 3y ago
  It's true. This meta-analysis was posted a while back on HN with this key quote: "In social media research, we focus on “how much social media did a person consume?” and we plan our experiments accordingly... Most don’t even distinguish between platforms, as if Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat, and TikTok are just different kinds of liquor. " Like I wrote in a comment back then, it's like blaming "computers" or "the internet". Vague to the point of useless. https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/why-some-researchers-think-im-wrong https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/why-some-researchers-th...
jjulius 3y ago
>I have lost patience with articles about kids and teens and "social media" that make no attempt to define what social media is. It is no wonder parents won't seriously - particularly when the follow up advice is "don't give your kids phones" as though it's all or nothing. This article is about social media, and doesn't suggest an all-or-nothing approach of not giving kids phones. Hell, a ctrl+f for "phone" brings up 0 results. >Could we please get a list of social media kids are using and their relative levels of harm? If it's mostly Instagram then say Instagram and parents can uninstall that app. Is it Facebook? (I didn't think kids were using Facebook) Is it TikTok? (I'm not sure I'd classify TikTok as social media) Twitter? Reddit? Roblox? Shared google docs? Group texts? Hacker news? If you go to the NYT article and follow the link to the 19-page report in the first article, you can find this[1] in the second citation. This appears to suggest that, at a minimum, social media includes YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Snapchat, Twitch, WhatsApp, Reddit, and Tumblr. These are, to my mind, obvious choices, but maybe it's not so obvious to others? Your comment is the first time I've ever heard anyone mention group texts and shared Google docs being considered "social media", and it's often mentioned and acknowledged on this very forum that HN can be considered social media. >Do I have to point out that phones have more uses than social media? No, because contrary to you saying that "saying 'no phones' is throwing the baby out with the bathwater", nobody has actually said that here. A ctrl+f for "phone" in this thread currently brings up 12 results, 9 (well, 10 now that I've edited this sentence in) of which are in my comment and yours, and the other three aren't about banning phones outright, in fact two of them are about taking the more nuanced approach you've suggested. >It shouldn't be hard to have intelligent, thoughtful discussions on kids and the internet. For some reason, no one ever does. It's not hard if we're not being so reactionary. [1]https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/2022/08/10/teens-social-media-and-technology-2022/ https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/2022/08/10/teens-social...
- nineplay 3y ago
  You have some fair points. Some of my criticism is not about the linked article but about the inevitable follow up discussions that usually have a heavy dose of "why are these lousy parents giving kids phones anyway?". Am I in the minority of not thinking of TikTok and YouTube as social media? Perhaps it's only in my head. I mention shared google docs because I've actually seen bullying behavior in shared google docs - it's an easy way for kids to talk to each other with their school laptops outside of any other supervision.
sghiassy 3y ago
Interesting that you wouldn't classify TikTok as social media. How would you characterize it?
- nineplay 3y ago
  I suppose I'd call it a video sharing platform. "Social media", to me, has an implication of media that is shared within a social circle. Facebook is social media because the intention is to share information with friends and family. No one is posting on FB hoping to have it go viral and make a pile of cash off it. TikToc is content creators sharing their videos with the whole world.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - al_ak 3y ago
    I think you're underestimating the draw of para-social relationships. That's what powers the "social media" part of TikTok. I think it would be disingenous to suggest that TikTok is anything other than social media.
    - nineplay 3y ago
      I will agree if I'm in the minority on this one, but it confirms my larger point - "social media" isn't a useful term. If some apps are putting our youth at risk, tell us what those apps are. Give a top three. Help everyone out.
  - bart_spoon 3y ago
    > TikToc is content creators sharing their videos with the whole world. Seems like a "social"ly focused way of producing/consuming a particular kind of "media". In all seriousness, I think the defining characteristics of social media for me include: - a social graph, I can follow other entities, and they can follow me - bottomless, user produced content and feeds - interactive commentary and messaging between users - promotion algorithms, where the endless content is filtered and promoted, potentially leading to something going "viral", including by those who aren't in my immediate social network - a focus on sharing content between users - some form of voting, liking, or reacting I don't think something needs all of the above to be considered social media. Some things ride the line quite a bit: a Discord server, if small between friends, probably doesn't qualify and is closer to a group chat. A large Discord server with lots of users who don't know each other? Probably counts. HackerNews, and other message boards? You could make an argument either way, but in HN's case, I'd say it is social media.
i2cmaster 3y ago
Obviously people are abusing non-free software and centralized web services both to spread propaganda and to separate parents from their kids. People not involved in the industry have an extremely difficult time articulating what they experience there though. I think it's wrong to be upset at them. >Saying "no phones" is throwing the baby out with the bath water I completely disagree. Outside of the top maybe tenth percentile of focused/competent people smartphones are a net negative. They're practically designed to be. I don't own one for that reason.

im3w1l 3y ago

The reason they don't say is because they don't know.

nineplay 3y ago
How can they claim that this is all backed up by research if they don't know what social media is? What is the link they are finding? It doesn't feel like science. It feels like hand-waving, correlation, and anecdote.
- im3w1l 3y ago
  Well imagine this experiment. You take 100 kids and put them into the animal enclosures at a local zoo. Some are put with sheep, some with birds, some with sharks, and lions and others with elephants. You notice that more of these kids these die than the control group that went to the zoo but outside the animal enclosures. Conclusion: wildlife dangerous. What you cannot conclude certainly is which wildlife is dangerous, there simple weren't enough participating kids. Maybe the reason the kid put with the lion lived is because lions are safe, or maybe it was because the lion was just fed. That would take a follow-up study to find. And what about kangaroos? The zoo didn't even have so we would have to try to extrapolate.
  - nineplay 3y ago
    If I'm doing the zoo study with 100 kids, I might turn it in for my 6th grade science project and enjoy my A. If I'm the Surgeon General of the United States, I'm doing the follow up study. As far as I can tell, that follow up study hasn't been done with kids and social media.
standardUser 3y ago
It's true. This meta-analysis was posted a while back on HN with this key quote: "In social media research, we focus on “how much social media did a person consume?” and we plan our experiments accordingly... Most don’t even distinguish between platforms, as if Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat, and TikTok are just different kinds of liquor. " Like I wrote in a comment back then, it's like blaming "computers" or "the internet". Vague to the point of useless. https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/why-some-researchers-think-im-wrong https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/why-some-researchers-th...

jjulius 3y ago

>I have lost patience with articles about kids and teens and "social media" that make no attempt to define what social media is. It is no wonder parents won't seriously - particularly when the follow up advice is "don't give your kids phones" as though it's all or nothing. This article is about social media, and doesn't suggest an all-or-nothing approach of not giving kids phones. Hell, a ctrl+f for "phone" brings up 0 results. >Could we please get a list of social media kids are using and their relative levels of harm? If it's mostly Instagram then say Instagram and parents can uninstall that app. Is it Facebook? (I didn't think kids were using Facebook) Is it TikTok? (I'm not sure I'd classify TikTok as social media) Twitter? Reddit? Roblox? Shared google docs? Group texts? Hacker news? If you go to the NYT article and follow the link to the 19-page report in the first article, you can find this[1] in the second citation. This appears to suggest that, at a minimum, social media includes YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Snapchat, Twitch, WhatsApp, Reddit, and Tumblr. These are, to my mind, obvious choices, but maybe it's not so obvious to others? Your comment is the first time I've ever heard anyone mention group texts and shared Google docs being considered "social media", and it's often mentioned and acknowledged on this very forum that HN can be considered social media. >Do I have to point out that phones have more uses than social media? No, because contrary to you saying that "saying 'no phones' is throwing the baby out with the bathwater", nobody has actually said that here. A ctrl+f for "phone" in this thread currently brings up 12 results, 9 (well, 10 now that I've edited this sentence in) of which are in my comment and yours, and the other three aren't about banning phones outright, in fact two of them are about taking the more nuanced approach you've suggested. >It shouldn't be hard to have intelligent, thoughtful discussions on kids and the internet. For some reason, no one ever does. It's not hard if we're not being so reactionary. [1]https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/2022/08/10/teens-social-media-and-technology-2022/ https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/2022/08/10/teens-social...

nineplay 3y ago
You have some fair points. Some of my criticism is not about the linked article but about the inevitable follow up discussions that usually have a heavy dose of "why are these lousy parents giving kids phones anyway?". Am I in the minority of not thinking of TikTok and YouTube as social media? Perhaps it's only in my head. I mention shared google docs because I've actually seen bullying behavior in shared google docs - it's an easy way for kids to talk to each other with their school laptops outside of any other supervision.

sghiassy 3y ago

Interesting that you wouldn't classify TikTok as social media. How would you characterize it?

nineplay 3y ago
I suppose I'd call it a video sharing platform. "Social media", to me, has an implication of media that is shared within a social circle. Facebook is social media because the intention is to share information with friends and family. No one is posting on FB hoping to have it go viral and make a pile of cash off it. TikToc is content creators sharing their videos with the whole world.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- al_ak 3y ago
  I think you're underestimating the draw of para-social relationships. That's what powers the "social media" part of TikTok. I think it would be disingenous to suggest that TikTok is anything other than social media.
  - nineplay 3y ago
    I will agree if I'm in the minority on this one, but it confirms my larger point - "social media" isn't a useful term. If some apps are putting our youth at risk, tell us what those apps are. Give a top three. Help everyone out.
- bart_spoon 3y ago
  > TikToc is content creators sharing their videos with the whole world. Seems like a "social"ly focused way of producing/consuming a particular kind of "media". In all seriousness, I think the defining characteristics of social media for me include: - a social graph, I can follow other entities, and they can follow me - bottomless, user produced content and feeds - interactive commentary and messaging between users - promotion algorithms, where the endless content is filtered and promoted, potentially leading to something going "viral", including by those who aren't in my immediate social network - a focus on sharing content between users - some form of voting, liking, or reacting I don't think something needs all of the above to be considered social media. Some things ride the line quite a bit: a Discord server, if small between friends, probably doesn't qualify and is closer to a group chat. A large Discord server with lots of users who don't know each other? Probably counts. HackerNews, and other message boards? You could make an argument either way, but in HN's case, I'd say it is social media.

i2cmaster 3y ago

Obviously people are abusing non-free software and centralized web services both to spread propaganda and to separate parents from their kids. People not involved in the industry have an extremely difficult time articulating what they experience there though. I think it's wrong to be upset at them. >Saying "no phones" is throwing the baby out with the bath water I completely disagree. Outside of the top maybe tenth percentile of focused/competent people smartphones are a net negative. They're practically designed to be. I don't own one for that reason.