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Reading these comments on this radical anti-crypto forum makes me always think of "the rumours of [Bitcoin's] death have been greatly exaggerated." While I don

by sph 3y ago

Reading these comments on this radical anti-crypto forum makes me always think of "the rumours of [Bitcoin's] death have been greatly exaggerated." While I don't have a Twitter profile with laser eyes just yet, I enjoy seeing what I think is a technological and political game changer just chugging along, uncaring of scams, maxis, haters, governments, volatility. I am surprised that few can notice how impressive it is for a currency with limited usability and extreme volatility to still be worth something, improving and growing. Because at one point, all the concerns one has about it will have been solved, and, as economists love to say, good money tends to drive out bad money. The Internet is still in need of its digital cash. So I enjoy seeing all the Ponzi schemers, con artists and grifters get their comeuppance, but would also love to see the crypto-Luddites inhabiting this forum to be proven wrong eventually. Because Bitcoin doesn't care, Bitcoin still goes brrr.

robin_reala 3y ago
And will go brr until self-induced climate change kills off the human race. Proof-of-work coins are obscene and immoral, and you should feel bad.
- sph 3y ago
  Yes, Bitcoin is what is causing climate change. Also stop eating meat. You're repeating the propaganda lines from big corporation and big government, while they keep subsidizing oil companies and ultra-rich take their private jet to have dinner in Paris. Also it feels good to believe climate change is within our (we the people) grasp, and we just have to recycle a bit more. This is literally putting the masses at each other's throats, while Unilever hopes to make billions if you buy their vegan products, and petrol companies go brrr. Divide et impera. -- Bitcoin turns energy into money. The problem is that we need more clean energy, not cry that people are using off-grid energy to mine Bitcoins. Build more nuclear. Invest in fusion research. But you nor I can't, so we're at each other's throat. Saying we need to consume less energy is misguided and absurd.
  - robin_reala 3y ago
    No monetary system is worth 703KWh per transaction.[1] Is that propaganda? [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/881541/bitcoin-energy-consumption-transaction-comparison-visa/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/881541/bitcoin-energy-co...
    - sph 3y ago
      Yawn. No monetary system works on 7 transactions per second either, this is why we now have Lightning and people are doing something about it, instead of repeating the same tired, exaggerated arguments. I find it disturbing how engineers in here can only claim for the prohibitionism of an inefficient yet radical technology. This ain't no hacker spirit.
      - robin_reala 3y ago
        Ok, seeing as you’re not answering my questions, in what way do Bitcoin and other proof-of-work coins get down to even vaguely sensible levels of energy consumption? Fission takes decades to spin up, fusion is a pipe dream, and we need all the renewables we can get to transition away from an oil-based economy.
        sph 3y ago
        > fusion is a pipe dream, and we need all the renewables we can get to transition away from an oil-based economy. That's a load of nonsense but to address your question: with one Bitcoin transaction, with Lightning, you can have millions of transactions with little than hashing a few numbers each. There is no theoretical limit. With one single Bitcoin transaction that you claim is killing the Earth. This information was just a Google away if you really wanted an answer, but crypto has become like football or party politics: my camp is always good, the other are the literally Satan. Since you started by saying I am immortal and should feel bad for even just talking positively about Bitcoin, there is no intelligent discussion to be had here. I don't even own Bitcoin, for crying out loud. I'll go back causing climate change or whatever you think I do.
dylkil 3y ago
What i find especially intriguing is the certainty some people on this forum have of crypto going to zero. The same certainty they had 2, 5 and 10 years ago. Yet here we are. At what stage do they start questioning the strength of their certainty.
- xtracto 3y ago
  I don't subscribe to Bitcoin, I think it was a good Proof of Concept that this "Satoshi Nakamoto" entity released with good ideas that have since been tested and replaced by better ones. I very well think that Bitcoin itself is going to zero, lest it migrates off PoW technolgoy. I am certain that at some point in the future governments will regulate and maybe even ban that wasteful use of electricity. Particularly when way better double-spending/integrity protection algorithms exist to replace PoW. Nevertheless, Blockchains and crypto-tokens are here to stay. Ethereum is here to stay and similar networks will keep progressing, as GP said, without regard to scammers, fraudsters, naysayers and skeptics around the world. Technology will keep improving and becoming better performing. This is exciting to me!
  - sph 3y ago
    I agree that the blockchain is an outstanding achievement in software engineering. It's a distributed, cryptographically secure, decentralised append-only log. It's a data structure that would have a lot of potential in real-world applications, e.g. auditing public institutions, defending against falsifiability, etc. it provides an impartial proof-of-time, which is huge. Bitcoin might live or die, but blockchains and digital currencies based on it are here to stay.
enilakla 3y ago
Random but, what do you mean by ‘goes brrr’?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- sph 3y ago
  Sorry, it's a meme: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/money-printer-go-brrr https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/money-printer-go-brrr It means it keeps chugging along with no care in the world.
cs702 3y ago
> good money tends to drive out bad money Actually, it's the other way around: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham's_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham's_law But otherwise, I agree: rumors of Bitcoin's death have been greatly exaggerated. See https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoin-obituaries/ https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoin-obituaries/
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- sph 3y ago
  Interesting. I was recently reading an essay from Hayek that explained why a better currency tends to drive out a bad one. I might need a refresher, though this seems to be one of those things that are true depending on how you look at it.
- amadeuspagel 3y ago
  Greham's law only applies where people are forced to treat good and bad money as equivalent. For example, if people are forced to treat coins of the same denomination as equivalent, regardless of how much gold the contain, you'll spend those that contain less gold and keep those that contain more gold.
  - cs702 3y ago
    Yes, that's right. Note that it also applies to fiat currencies. For example, at various times in recent years many Venezuelans would try to hoard USD (the good money), driving it out of circulation, and spend as much as possible in the latest version of the Bolivar -- until the Bolivar failed. Once the Bolivar failed, everyone would stop accepting it. Venezuela has created several versions of the Bolivar in recent years that have subsequently failed.
fdsadfsaklj 3y ago
Agree! It's a tiring situation. On the one hand you have the idealists who know bitcoin is going to radicalize everything because "the Internet needs it." On the other you have the "radical anti-crypto(currency) ludites" who is anyone on this forum who holds a different opinion.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

by sph 3y ago

robin_reala 3y ago

And will go brr until self-induced climate change kills off the human race. Proof-of-work coins are obscene and immoral, and you should feel bad.

sph 3y ago
Yes, Bitcoin is what is causing climate change. Also stop eating meat. You're repeating the propaganda lines from big corporation and big government, while they keep subsidizing oil companies and ultra-rich take their private jet to have dinner in Paris. Also it feels good to believe climate change is within our (we the people) grasp, and we just have to recycle a bit more. This is literally putting the masses at each other's throats, while Unilever hopes to make billions if you buy their vegan products, and petrol companies go brrr. Divide et impera. -- Bitcoin turns energy into money. The problem is that we need more clean energy, not cry that people are using off-grid energy to mine Bitcoins. Build more nuclear. Invest in fusion research. But you nor I can't, so we're at each other's throat. Saying we need to consume less energy is misguided and absurd.
- robin_reala 3y ago
  No monetary system is worth 703KWh per transaction.[1] Is that propaganda? [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/881541/bitcoin-energy-consumption-transaction-comparison-visa/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/881541/bitcoin-energy-co...
  - sph 3y ago
    Yawn. No monetary system works on 7 transactions per second either, this is why we now have Lightning and people are doing something about it, instead of repeating the same tired, exaggerated arguments. I find it disturbing how engineers in here can only claim for the prohibitionism of an inefficient yet radical technology. This ain't no hacker spirit.
    - robin_reala 3y ago
      Ok, seeing as you’re not answering my questions, in what way do Bitcoin and other proof-of-work coins get down to even vaguely sensible levels of energy consumption? Fission takes decades to spin up, fusion is a pipe dream, and we need all the renewables we can get to transition away from an oil-based economy.
      - sph 3y ago
        > fusion is a pipe dream, and we need all the renewables we can get to transition away from an oil-based economy. That's a load of nonsense but to address your question: with one Bitcoin transaction, with Lightning, you can have millions of transactions with little than hashing a few numbers each. There is no theoretical limit. With one single Bitcoin transaction that you claim is killing the Earth. This information was just a Google away if you really wanted an answer, but crypto has become like football or party politics: my camp is always good, the other are the literally Satan. Since you started by saying I am immortal and should feel bad for even just talking positively about Bitcoin, there is no intelligent discussion to be had here. I don't even own Bitcoin, for crying out loud. I'll go back causing climate change or whatever you think I do.

dylkil 3y ago

What i find especially intriguing is the certainty some people on this forum have of crypto going to zero. The same certainty they had 2, 5 and 10 years ago. Yet here we are. At what stage do they start questioning the strength of their certainty.

xtracto 3y ago
I don't subscribe to Bitcoin, I think it was a good Proof of Concept that this "Satoshi Nakamoto" entity released with good ideas that have since been tested and replaced by better ones. I very well think that Bitcoin itself is going to zero, lest it migrates off PoW technolgoy. I am certain that at some point in the future governments will regulate and maybe even ban that wasteful use of electricity. Particularly when way better double-spending/integrity protection algorithms exist to replace PoW. Nevertheless, Blockchains and crypto-tokens are here to stay. Ethereum is here to stay and similar networks will keep progressing, as GP said, without regard to scammers, fraudsters, naysayers and skeptics around the world. Technology will keep improving and becoming better performing. This is exciting to me!
- sph 3y ago
  I agree that the blockchain is an outstanding achievement in software engineering. It's a distributed, cryptographically secure, decentralised append-only log. It's a data structure that would have a lot of potential in real-world applications, e.g. auditing public institutions, defending against falsifiability, etc. it provides an impartial proof-of-time, which is huge. Bitcoin might live or die, but blockchains and digital currencies based on it are here to stay.

enilakla 3y ago

Random but, what do you mean by ‘goes brrr’?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
sph 3y ago
Sorry, it's a meme: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/money-printer-go-brrr https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/money-printer-go-brrr It means it keeps chugging along with no care in the world.

cs702 3y ago

> good money tends to drive out bad money Actually, it's the other way around: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham's_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham's_law But otherwise, I agree: rumors of Bitcoin's death have been greatly exaggerated. See https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoin-obituaries/ https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoin-obituaries/

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
sph 3y ago
Interesting. I was recently reading an essay from Hayek that explained why a better currency tends to drive out a bad one. I might need a refresher, though this seems to be one of those things that are true depending on how you look at it.
amadeuspagel 3y ago
Greham's law only applies where people are forced to treat good and bad money as equivalent. For example, if people are forced to treat coins of the same denomination as equivalent, regardless of how much gold the contain, you'll spend those that contain less gold and keep those that contain more gold.
- cs702 3y ago
  Yes, that's right. Note that it also applies to fiat currencies. For example, at various times in recent years many Venezuelans would try to hoard USD (the good money), driving it out of circulation, and spend as much as possible in the latest version of the Bolivar -- until the Bolivar failed. Once the Bolivar failed, everyone would stop accepting it. Venezuela has created several versions of the Bolivar in recent years that have subsequently failed.

fdsadfsaklj 3y ago

Agree! It's a tiring situation. On the one hand you have the idealists who know bitcoin is going to radicalize everything because "the Internet needs it." On the other you have the "radical anti-crypto(currency) ludites" who is anyone on this forum who holds a different opinion.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]