6 ms·

> I have a lot more faith in the value of my Monero than the USD I've heard people say this about various cryptocurrencies over the last few years and I just c

by smcl 3y ago

> I have a lot more faith in the value of my Monero than the USD I've heard people say this about various cryptocurrencies over the last few years and I just cannot take the statement seriously. It just always comes across as a deliberately exaggeration of belief in a cryptocurrency in an attempt to persuade others to get in on it. Not only that, I cannot imagine a world where USD collapses and somehow things like Monero or Ethereum stick around and continue to work just fine.

rschneid 3y ago
What about this statement is so hard to take seriously? There are a variety of concerns one could have about either fiat/fiscal policy or cryptocurrency development/deployment/stewardship. One is a highly centralized system, the other is relatively decentralized. They have different threat models, strengths, and weaknesses. I would hazard a guess that your demographic profile is similar to the members of the current cabal that try to control USD's supply and value but to those who don't have similar priorities, crypto offers a different set of values than the 'traditional' finance system. The two aren't mutually exclusive, and the person you're replying to didn't say either would be 'just fine' without the other... Not sure why you're proud of your inability to defeat a straw man!
- smcl 3y ago
  I thought my comment was pretty self-explanatory but I'll restate it. I don't believe people when they make talk about how their particular favourite flavour of crypto is better/stabler/stronger than reserve currencies like USD, GBP, EUR, CHF etc. My feeling is that they're either just trying to convince you to get on board or perhaps even trying to convince themselves. > Not sure why you're proud of your inability to defeat a straw man! Pardon?
  - hef19898 3y ago
    >> or perhaps even trying to convince themselves. That leads me to a big, big tangent, completely unrelated to crypto. Recently I followed online discusions of a certain car model in comparison to well known alternatives and, no idea why actually, soccer clubs. And one thing I found funny, is to which length people go to, well, rationalize and defend their preferances. E.g. interior finish is just bad of model a compared to brand b, while obviously the fact that brand b can be had without leather interior is better because of animals suffering. Or model b is better because it can be had with a V6, while model a cannot, ignoring the fact that the majority of engines for model b are inline fours as well. That actually did sound a lot like convincing oneself that the preferance for model b is totally rational. You have similar vibes whem it comes to sport teams, it basically boils down to fanboyism. Which is fine, which car or club people prefer doesn't have to be rational. It gets risky so, if that attitude is extended to finance.
  - rschneid 3y ago
    There's no scalar measurement for stability, quality, or strength so there's no direct comparison to be made. It's comparing vectors and the properties of each vector may or may not be things you care about but leaving them unspecified and claiming they're collectively inferior or less meaningful than other things is the straw man you're defeating. People have faith in governments for various reasons, giving their currencies value. People have faith in crypto for various reasons, giving their currencies value. Nobody is making a claim of general superiority except you. The guy you're responding to simply says THEY have more faith in one particular currency. Why is that so hard to believe? They may not be a US citizen! It's not an objective statement they're making about the quality of USD, but a personal one. The straw man you're attacking seems to be a reflection of your own general idea that USD is the 'supreme' currency and anything having comparable properties in any way is some foundational challenge to this multi-faceted strict dominance. The impure and complicated truth is that each currency has strengths and weaknesses. It is a fact that for any given application and person any given currency can be better/worse for their application. If you exist exclusively in the United States and never break any laws, I can see why this might be difficult to imagine. For example, some people place great value on being able to transact without the enforcement of American cultural values. This quality of the currency for many is objectively a negative property. Since all currency are largely valued based on fiat anyway these days, why is it so hard to imagine people having preferences more closely aligned with groups other than one of the most geriatric and monochromatic governments on earth?
    - smcl 3y ago
      > The straw man you're attacking seems to be a reflection of your own general idea that USD is the 'supreme' currency and anything having comparable properties in any way is some foundational challenge to this multi-faceted strict dominance. Constructing a straw man to attack while accusing someone else of doing a straw man. Folks, we love to see it. Look this is a dumb argument to be having in 2023. These cryptocurrency projects are going to fizzle out and disappear once enough of those involved find a new grift (either ChatGPT/LLM-based things or whatever comes after that). If you want to be holding the bag when that happens then that's on you.
- JAlexoid 3y ago
  At this point cryptocurrencies are as centralized as fiat currencies(globally). Why is Etherium be better than South African Rand?
toolz 3y ago
History is littered with global reserve currencies outright failing or losing its global reserve status. USD failing wouldn't surprise anyone looking at financial systems through a historical lens. Years after it happens (and I don't think anyone truly believes USD is the last global reserve currency humankind will see) it will be painfully obvious to everyone how unsustainable our inflation driven economy is.
- hnaccount141 3y ago
  The question isn't whether or not the USD can fail. Of course it can. The question to ask is whether Monero or any other given cryptocurrency will fare better than the USD in the event that it does collapse. That seems much less clear at this point in time.
  - mattdesl 3y ago
    As a thought experiment: if USD were to fail, yet other world currencies stayed afloat, why would anybody holding non-custodial crypto flock to a dying currency? It’s not entirely unreasonable to predict that “crypto” might outlast a central currency, given the ease at which it can span geographic and state borders.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Unless crypto is backed actual economies, as fiat currency is, that will propably not happen anytime soon.
    - smcl 3y ago
      The assumptions here are: 1. USD fails 2. All the other currencies are "dying" 3. (let's say) Monero exists and is not dying So yes in the scenario you've constructed where everything but a cryptocurrency dies or is dying, crypto is more successful.
      - mattdesl 3y ago
        You misread - the scenario is that USD is dying, but other state currencies like Euro or JPY stay afloat.
__MatrixMan__ 3y ago
> things like Monero or Ethereum I guess it comes down to how far you're willing to stretch "like" there. Progress is glacial, but crypto is becoming more useful. Meanwhile, traditional finance appears to be getting worse. Eventually those lines will cross. Although I doubt the cryto's of that time will look very much like what we have today.
- bigtunacan 3y ago
  How is it becoming more useful? Arguably it is more difficult to use for buying selling, plus if I spend it I'm taxed as if I sold an equity. It's value is pegged to the dollar so we can see massive shifts in its "value" constantly happening. There are almost an infinite number of cryptocurrencies and new ones still being created. Each is a different currency, so how should we determine which of these fake currencies actually have value and which don't?
  - __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
    I mean that the set of systems that you can build which require neither custodial trust nor have single points of failure is increasing. To name a few instances of this: This is old news, but I remember when zcash introduced halo and got rid of trusted setup--that's a legit increase in what's possible. NFT's as ownership of digital assets is maybe a silly application of the tech, but the sort of uniqueness constraint that they enforce is useful in centralized databases and I expect it'll find a similar niche in the distributed systems of the future. TCL's that use token price to encourage curation appear to be a non-starter, but coupled with a web of trust I think we can use the same concept to have consensus on a wide variety of useful things. Their use as money? Sure, wildly inconvenient. But like... duh. Emulated systems are slower than ones running on bare metal because you have to embrace the constraints of both systems--it's the same with the use of cryptocurrencies within the existing financial system. The point was never to make something that's just as good as traditional money--why bother? The point is to make traditional money obsolete in favor of something else. Something whose rules matter not because the guy who wrote them own has a gun, but because people consent to participate based on their merits. > how should we determine which of these fake currencies actually have value and which don't? By their side effects. If you value the endless consumption of electricity and zero sum games, you should value bitcoin. If you value politicians playing chicken over the debt ceiling, you should value USD. As it stands, the options are all pretty bad, but the ability to craft new ones is getting better and the cancer that our current one has is getting worse, so eventually there will be something worth switching to.
MacsHeadroom 3y ago
The value of USD has collapsed 300x vs XMR over the past 6 years.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  Cool, when can I actually do anything with XMR other than trade it to other tokens and play dumb scams on various crypto systems?
  - MacsHeadroom 3y ago
    You can pay any bills with it, load a debit card with it, use it on eBay, Amazon, etc. through third party facilitators.
    - mrguyorama 3y ago
      By that you mean I can sell it for real money and use real money to do real money things.
    - smcl 3y ago
      Weird I just checked and every single bill I have I can only pay in CZK. Guess this revolution must have slipped by us here in the technological backwaters of Central Europe. Looking forward to reading about how people in the USA can pay their electricity, gas, groceries, internet, mortgage, insurance, tuition, taxes or anything else using XMR though. This sounds like a gamechanger!

by smcl 3y ago

rschneid 3y ago

What about this statement is so hard to take seriously? There are a variety of concerns one could have about either fiat/fiscal policy or cryptocurrency development/deployment/stewardship. One is a highly centralized system, the other is relatively decentralized. They have different threat models, strengths, and weaknesses. I would hazard a guess that your demographic profile is similar to the members of the current cabal that try to control USD's supply and value but to those who don't have similar priorities, crypto offers a different set of values than the 'traditional' finance system. The two aren't mutually exclusive, and the person you're replying to didn't say either would be 'just fine' without the other... Not sure why you're proud of your inability to defeat a straw man!

smcl 3y ago
I thought my comment was pretty self-explanatory but I'll restate it. I don't believe people when they make talk about how their particular favourite flavour of crypto is better/stabler/stronger than reserve currencies like USD, GBP, EUR, CHF etc. My feeling is that they're either just trying to convince you to get on board or perhaps even trying to convince themselves. > Not sure why you're proud of your inability to defeat a straw man! Pardon?
- hef19898 3y ago
  >> or perhaps even trying to convince themselves. That leads me to a big, big tangent, completely unrelated to crypto. Recently I followed online discusions of a certain car model in comparison to well known alternatives and, no idea why actually, soccer clubs. And one thing I found funny, is to which length people go to, well, rationalize and defend their preferances. E.g. interior finish is just bad of model a compared to brand b, while obviously the fact that brand b can be had without leather interior is better because of animals suffering. Or model b is better because it can be had with a V6, while model a cannot, ignoring the fact that the majority of engines for model b are inline fours as well. That actually did sound a lot like convincing oneself that the preferance for model b is totally rational. You have similar vibes whem it comes to sport teams, it basically boils down to fanboyism. Which is fine, which car or club people prefer doesn't have to be rational. It gets risky so, if that attitude is extended to finance.
- rschneid 3y ago
  There's no scalar measurement for stability, quality, or strength so there's no direct comparison to be made. It's comparing vectors and the properties of each vector may or may not be things you care about but leaving them unspecified and claiming they're collectively inferior or less meaningful than other things is the straw man you're defeating. People have faith in governments for various reasons, giving their currencies value. People have faith in crypto for various reasons, giving their currencies value. Nobody is making a claim of general superiority except you. The guy you're responding to simply says THEY have more faith in one particular currency. Why is that so hard to believe? They may not be a US citizen! It's not an objective statement they're making about the quality of USD, but a personal one. The straw man you're attacking seems to be a reflection of your own general idea that USD is the 'supreme' currency and anything having comparable properties in any way is some foundational challenge to this multi-faceted strict dominance. The impure and complicated truth is that each currency has strengths and weaknesses. It is a fact that for any given application and person any given currency can be better/worse for their application. If you exist exclusively in the United States and never break any laws, I can see why this might be difficult to imagine. For example, some people place great value on being able to transact without the enforcement of American cultural values. This quality of the currency for many is objectively a negative property. Since all currency are largely valued based on fiat anyway these days, why is it so hard to imagine people having preferences more closely aligned with groups other than one of the most geriatric and monochromatic governments on earth?
  - smcl 3y ago
    > The straw man you're attacking seems to be a reflection of your own general idea that USD is the 'supreme' currency and anything having comparable properties in any way is some foundational challenge to this multi-faceted strict dominance. Constructing a straw man to attack while accusing someone else of doing a straw man. Folks, we love to see it. Look this is a dumb argument to be having in 2023. These cryptocurrency projects are going to fizzle out and disappear once enough of those involved find a new grift (either ChatGPT/LLM-based things or whatever comes after that). If you want to be holding the bag when that happens then that's on you.
JAlexoid 3y ago
At this point cryptocurrencies are as centralized as fiat currencies(globally). Why is Etherium be better than South African Rand?

toolz 3y ago

History is littered with global reserve currencies outright failing or losing its global reserve status. USD failing wouldn't surprise anyone looking at financial systems through a historical lens. Years after it happens (and I don't think anyone truly believes USD is the last global reserve currency humankind will see) it will be painfully obvious to everyone how unsustainable our inflation driven economy is.

hnaccount141 3y ago
The question isn't whether or not the USD can fail. Of course it can. The question to ask is whether Monero or any other given cryptocurrency will fare better than the USD in the event that it does collapse. That seems much less clear at this point in time.
- mattdesl 3y ago
  As a thought experiment: if USD were to fail, yet other world currencies stayed afloat, why would anybody holding non-custodial crypto flock to a dying currency? It’s not entirely unreasonable to predict that “crypto” might outlast a central currency, given the ease at which it can span geographic and state borders.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Unless crypto is backed actual economies, as fiat currency is, that will propably not happen anytime soon.
  - smcl 3y ago
    The assumptions here are: 1. USD fails 2. All the other currencies are "dying" 3. (let's say) Monero exists and is not dying So yes in the scenario you've constructed where everything but a cryptocurrency dies or is dying, crypto is more successful.
    - mattdesl 3y ago
      You misread - the scenario is that USD is dying, but other state currencies like Euro or JPY stay afloat.

__MatrixMan__ 3y ago

> things like Monero or Ethereum I guess it comes down to how far you're willing to stretch "like" there. Progress is glacial, but crypto is becoming more useful. Meanwhile, traditional finance appears to be getting worse. Eventually those lines will cross. Although I doubt the cryto's of that time will look very much like what we have today.

bigtunacan 3y ago
How is it becoming more useful? Arguably it is more difficult to use for buying selling, plus if I spend it I'm taxed as if I sold an equity. It's value is pegged to the dollar so we can see massive shifts in its "value" constantly happening. There are almost an infinite number of cryptocurrencies and new ones still being created. Each is a different currency, so how should we determine which of these fake currencies actually have value and which don't?
- __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
  I mean that the set of systems that you can build which require neither custodial trust nor have single points of failure is increasing. To name a few instances of this: This is old news, but I remember when zcash introduced halo and got rid of trusted setup--that's a legit increase in what's possible. NFT's as ownership of digital assets is maybe a silly application of the tech, but the sort of uniqueness constraint that they enforce is useful in centralized databases and I expect it'll find a similar niche in the distributed systems of the future. TCL's that use token price to encourage curation appear to be a non-starter, but coupled with a web of trust I think we can use the same concept to have consensus on a wide variety of useful things. Their use as money? Sure, wildly inconvenient. But like... duh. Emulated systems are slower than ones running on bare metal because you have to embrace the constraints of both systems--it's the same with the use of cryptocurrencies within the existing financial system. The point was never to make something that's just as good as traditional money--why bother? The point is to make traditional money obsolete in favor of something else. Something whose rules matter not because the guy who wrote them own has a gun, but because people consent to participate based on their merits. > how should we determine which of these fake currencies actually have value and which don't? By their side effects. If you value the endless consumption of electricity and zero sum games, you should value bitcoin. If you value politicians playing chicken over the debt ceiling, you should value USD. As it stands, the options are all pretty bad, but the ability to craft new ones is getting better and the cancer that our current one has is getting worse, so eventually there will be something worth switching to.

MacsHeadroom 3y ago

The value of USD has collapsed 300x vs XMR over the past 6 years.

mrguyorama 3y ago
Cool, when can I actually do anything with XMR other than trade it to other tokens and play dumb scams on various crypto systems?
- MacsHeadroom 3y ago
  You can pay any bills with it, load a debit card with it, use it on eBay, Amazon, etc. through third party facilitators.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    By that you mean I can sell it for real money and use real money to do real money things.
  - smcl 3y ago
    Weird I just checked and every single bill I have I can only pay in CZK. Guess this revolution must have slipped by us here in the technological backwaters of Central Europe. Looking forward to reading about how people in the USA can pay their electricity, gas, groceries, internet, mortgage, insurance, tuition, taxes or anything else using XMR though. This sounds like a gamechanger!