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but it seems like that is what you get for implementing such a law in the first place? Who are you talking to? The people being surveilled certainly had zero s

by dfxm12 3y ago

but it seems like that is what you get for implementing such a law in the first place? Who are you talking to? The people being surveilled certainly had zero say in implementing this law.

shadowgovt 3y ago
The Americans being surveilled almost certainly have the right to vote both for the people who make these laws and the people who oversee enforcement of them at the top level. The problem isn't an unaccountable minority; it's that if you poll ten Americans on whether these are actually good policies, you get different answers depending on how you structure the question (and that's borne out in the voting booth, where Americans keep sending the Congresspeople who passed these laws back to Washington).
- dfxm12 3y ago
  It's tough to foresee that something like FISA or PATRIOT Act would even be on the table during the previous election when voting for representatives. Yeah, you're right, incumbents tend to keep getting reelected, and while I think the similarities of Democrats and Republicans are overblown, one place where they are very similar is supporting law enforcement, intelligence agencies and the military industrial complex. Taking that into account, even if my senator answered the phone, they have no accountability to me for up to 6 years, and political parties can play games with votes when they know they have the numbers to make sure congress people representing risky districts or having elections coming up soon vote in a safe way. There are some politicians who side with the American people on this, sure, but they are few and far between, even if you look at who is running in primaries. People who voted against the patriot act, like Bernie Sanders or Ron Paul are considered political extremists, even from their own parties. Add to that silence from SCOTUS on the matter (as recently as this: https://www.theregister.com/2023/02/22/supreme_court_wikimedia_nsa/ https://www.theregister.com/2023/02/22/supreme_court_wikimed...), and it becomes clear that to say that my right to vote for congressional representatives gives me a say secret surveillance is awfully hand wavy, I think to the point of naivety or victim blaming. In the wake of Snowden's leaks, Gallup found that only 37% of American adults approved of the program, even saying it was designed to fight terrorism: https://news.gallup.com/poll/163043/americans-disapprove-government-surveillance-programs.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/163043/americans-disapprove-gov..., which is a very charitable way to frame the question for proponents of the program, but again, it doesn't matter what Americans think even when they go into the voting booth, because intelligence community is going to continue doing this anyway.

by dfxm12 3y ago

but it seems like that is what you get for implementing such a law in the first place? Who are you talking to? The people being surveilled certainly had zero say in implementing this law.

shadowgovt 3y ago

The Americans being surveilled almost certainly have the right to vote both for the people who make these laws and the people who oversee enforcement of them at the top level. The problem isn't an unaccountable minority; it's that if you poll ten Americans on whether these are actually good policies, you get different answers depending on how you structure the question (and that's borne out in the voting booth, where Americans keep sending the Congresspeople who passed these laws back to Washington).

dfxm12 3y ago
It's tough to foresee that something like FISA or PATRIOT Act would even be on the table during the previous election when voting for representatives. Yeah, you're right, incumbents tend to keep getting reelected, and while I think the similarities of Democrats and Republicans are overblown, one place where they are very similar is supporting law enforcement, intelligence agencies and the military industrial complex. Taking that into account, even if my senator answered the phone, they have no accountability to me for up to 6 years, and political parties can play games with votes when they know they have the numbers to make sure congress people representing risky districts or having elections coming up soon vote in a safe way. There are some politicians who side with the American people on this, sure, but they are few and far between, even if you look at who is running in primaries. People who voted against the patriot act, like Bernie Sanders or Ron Paul are considered political extremists, even from their own parties. Add to that silence from SCOTUS on the matter (as recently as this: https://www.theregister.com/2023/02/22/supreme_court_wikimedia_nsa/ https://www.theregister.com/2023/02/22/supreme_court_wikimed...), and it becomes clear that to say that my right to vote for congressional representatives gives me a say secret surveillance is awfully hand wavy, I think to the point of naivety or victim blaming. In the wake of Snowden's leaks, Gallup found that only 37% of American adults approved of the program, even saying it was designed to fight terrorism: https://news.gallup.com/poll/163043/americans-disapprove-government-surveillance-programs.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/163043/americans-disapprove-gov..., which is a very charitable way to frame the question for proponents of the program, but again, it doesn't matter what Americans think even when they go into the voting booth, because intelligence community is going to continue doing this anyway.