5 ms·

I don't know if you're being sarcastic, but the people have not elected the FBI or any other 3 letter agency that seems to have infiltrated every facet of our g

I don't know if you're being sarcastic, but the people have not elected the FBI or any other 3 letter agency that seems to have infiltrated every facet of our government. These agencies have more power than our elected officials right now.

sixothree 3y ago
The country was founded on checks and balances. We keep forgetting that lesson over and over again.
- DrThunder 3y ago
  Yep, it seem our executive branch, 3 letter agencies want to bypass all of those be Judge Dredd.
mistermann 3y ago
Oh I'm definitely being sarcastic.....I am endlessly fascinated by the mental hoops (the various caveats they will inject into their articulation of "democracy") people will jump through to continue believing that their country "is" democratic. I appreciate that this is a very complicated space that requires flexibility, compromise, etc, my complaint is that we tend to pretend (often extremely enthusiastically) that the situation is actually simple. If something is good, I don't think it should require continual lying, deceit, and delusion to prop it up in the minds of the population.
- shadowgovt 3y ago
  I mean... 79% of Democrats say the FBI is doing a good job (https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2022-10-05/poll-americans-view-of-the-fbi-improves-but-partisan-gap-widens https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2022-10-0...). I'd say the US is democratic with a polity that is deeply split on some key issues. But that doesn't imply the government doesn't reflect the will of the people (sometimes the will of the people is "a hot mess;" this was one of the deep concerns of the people who set up the Constitution in the first place).
  - mistermann 3y ago
    > I mean... 79% of Democrats say the FBI is doing a good job And what school curriculum here most of these people raised on? American school curriculum perchance? That we believe that the average person is anywhere near remotely competent to judge such things is a big problem in itself. > I'd say the US is democratic... Based on what criteria, the fact that they get to cast a vote now and then, for a person that was pre-chosen in some also questionably democratic process? If people were able to wonder what is true, perhaps we would stand a chance.
    - shadowgovt 3y ago
      > for a person that was pre-chosen in some also questionably democratic process? I'm disinclined to entertain that notion until I see the average participation in the primary elections go above 40%. People need to stop complaining about the system choosing leadership without their input if they aren't providing the input. Besides, the two thoughts you expressed are contradictory... If the public isn't sufficiently educated, they shouldn't be choosing their leadership. That was exactly the risk that the authors of the Constitution were concerned about when they put in checks against simple mobocracy. Maybe the opinion that the FBI shouldn't be surveilling folks stems from an uneducated point of view? Either way we slice it, it seems like Americans are getting the government they should have... Paternalistic because they cannot self-govern, or governed by them and beholden to their general apathy. > If people were able to wonder what is true, perhaps we would stand a chance. We have plenty of folks who wonder what is true. Some believe (still) that a child prostitution ring was operating out of the basement of a building with no basement. Some believe (still) a massively decentralized election was centrally rigged via voting machine manipulation in spite of a media company losing a defamation suit... An incredibly hard kind of suit for a media company to lose, because truth is always an affirmative defense. We need more critical thinkers, not blind questioners.
      - mistermann 3y ago
        Do you consider yourself to be a highly skilled critical thinker on that wonders what is true, on an absolute scale? (Note: this isn't purely snark, there is a point to this style of thinking )

sixothree 3y ago

The country was founded on checks and balances. We keep forgetting that lesson over and over again.

DrThunder 3y ago
Yep, it seem our executive branch, 3 letter agencies want to bypass all of those be Judge Dredd.

mistermann 3y ago

Oh I'm definitely being sarcastic.....I am endlessly fascinated by the mental hoops (the various caveats they will inject into their articulation of "democracy") people will jump through to continue believing that their country "is" democratic. I appreciate that this is a very complicated space that requires flexibility, compromise, etc, my complaint is that we tend to pretend (often extremely enthusiastically) that the situation is actually simple. If something is good, I don't think it should require continual lying, deceit, and delusion to prop it up in the minds of the population.

shadowgovt 3y ago
I mean... 79% of Democrats say the FBI is doing a good job (https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2022-10-05/poll-americans-view-of-the-fbi-improves-but-partisan-gap-widens https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2022-10-0...). I'd say the US is democratic with a polity that is deeply split on some key issues. But that doesn't imply the government doesn't reflect the will of the people (sometimes the will of the people is "a hot mess;" this was one of the deep concerns of the people who set up the Constitution in the first place).
- mistermann 3y ago
  > I mean... 79% of Democrats say the FBI is doing a good job And what school curriculum here most of these people raised on? American school curriculum perchance? That we believe that the average person is anywhere near remotely competent to judge such things is a big problem in itself. > I'd say the US is democratic... Based on what criteria, the fact that they get to cast a vote now and then, for a person that was pre-chosen in some also questionably democratic process? If people were able to wonder what is true, perhaps we would stand a chance.
  - shadowgovt 3y ago
    > for a person that was pre-chosen in some also questionably democratic process? I'm disinclined to entertain that notion until I see the average participation in the primary elections go above 40%. People need to stop complaining about the system choosing leadership without their input if they aren't providing the input. Besides, the two thoughts you expressed are contradictory... If the public isn't sufficiently educated, they shouldn't be choosing their leadership. That was exactly the risk that the authors of the Constitution were concerned about when they put in checks against simple mobocracy. Maybe the opinion that the FBI shouldn't be surveilling folks stems from an uneducated point of view? Either way we slice it, it seems like Americans are getting the government they should have... Paternalistic because they cannot self-govern, or governed by them and beholden to their general apathy. > If people were able to wonder what is true, perhaps we would stand a chance. We have plenty of folks who wonder what is true. Some believe (still) that a child prostitution ring was operating out of the basement of a building with no basement. Some believe (still) a massively decentralized election was centrally rigged via voting machine manipulation in spite of a media company losing a defamation suit... An incredibly hard kind of suit for a media company to lose, because truth is always an affirmative defense. We need more critical thinkers, not blind questioners.
    - mistermann 3y ago
      Do you consider yourself to be a highly skilled critical thinker on that wonders what is true, on an absolute scale? (Note: this isn't purely snark, there is a point to this style of thinking )