8 ms·

Musician here, most of us (the ones that aren't also programmers) just have to pay up the arse every time for every thing. I've been teaching myself keys the l

by jtode 3y ago

Musician here, most of us (the ones that aren't also programmers) just have to pay up the arse every time for every thing. I've been teaching myself keys the last few years and had been planning to one day get myself a big $6k stage keyboard, when I felt that I had sufficiently developed to warrant it. I have since tried out Zynthian, and my conclusion was that with a pianoteq license and a good controller, I can have way more functionality and sounds and every thing for a small fraction of the price of that Nord. Your comment is fascinating, because domination of music is one of the pillars of Mac's success. If they're not just neglecting that, but actively screwing with people... They've lost the plot. Like so many giant piles of capital masquerading as a company.

timrichard 3y ago
I have a feeling of unease too. OSX occasionally warns me about third party kernel extensions, and that's not an encouraging direction of travel. I bought my audio interface precisely because RME have a reputation for writing reliable and performant drivers.
joshspankit 3y ago
> domination of music is one of the pillars of Mac's success. If they're not just neglecting that, but actively screwing with people... They've lost the plot. They’ve lost many plots. Musicians, developers, and even photographers. Apple’s playbook seems to have changed to: - Hook a demographic with functionality that’s anywhere from just good enough to excellent - Railroad them in to using as many first-part services as possible (especially if that means getting them to buy more Apple devices) - Slowly lock them down so it’s harder and harder to move to competitors (aka boil the frog) - Move staff from those first party products as the users are trapped and it’s no longer necessary for the quality to be excellent
- kibwen 3y ago
  Google famously discontinued Google Reader despite it having tens of millions of users because it represented a minuscule contribution to their bottom line. Apple isn't a software company, it's a phone company. Everything that isn't an iPhone represents a minuscule contribution to their bottom line. Apple doesn't give a shit about pro users, even if it's profitable, because they're too big to care.
  - runjake 3y ago
    I was questioning your “Apple’s a phone company” claim, figuring services long ago surpassed iPhone sales, but in fact, services sits at about 30% of their revenue and the iPhone sits at about 55%, which is roughly 5% growth from last year!
    - utopcell 3y ago
      Services may be at 30% but their profit margin for them is >70%, more than double of what they have for hardware.
      - jtode 3y ago
        I think they were conceding the point :>
- jtode 3y ago
  So, Chokepoint Capitalism.
gcr 3y ago
offtopic, but what keyboard controller do you recommend? I have a cheap MIDI keyboard but the keyfeel is all wrong compared to the upright pianos I used to play as a kid. I'd like to get back into piano, and I know I struggled with phrasing/dynamics, and I worry that unweighted keys will teach me bad habits even though they're technically velocity sensitive...
- sfitz 3y ago
  Most MIDI keyboards aren't really made for piano performance or even really for piano practice. If you want a MIDI controller for this reason, I'd recommend going to a music store near you (if applicable) and playing a few and feeling the keys and go with the one that feels nicest for your budget.
  - lsaferite 3y ago
    I bought my wife a Yamaha Arius YDP-184 and she loves it. It's not 100% like the baby grand she does lessons on, but it's close enough for most purposes. It has a MIDI interface, but it's not really easily portable.
    - illwrks 3y ago
      Seconded. My daughter plays piano, and we have one of these. The YDP line of pianos from Yamaha are very good value, obviously not the same as a grand piano but very very good for a digital piano, and has midi out.
      - mh- 3y ago
        It has midi out and presents itself as a USB audio interface. So if you go into the menu on the YDP itself and turn off the local sound, you can connect it to your laptop via USB and play virtual instruments on it, with the audio going right back out to the YDP's speakers. I thought that was super cool when I realized that.
        3y ago
Bad_CRC 3y ago
My Pod Studio UX 2 interface works on a M1 Ventura but most of the Line 6 software that I used (Pod Farm with multiple sound packs) doesn't works any more. I've to but Pod Farm 2.5. The software for loading patches to my Pod XT Live doesn't work either. It's an old Software that runs on... Windows 10...
moojd 3y ago
Nords are for gigging artists that want every feature accessable via physical controls on the device with minimal setup. If you are willing to bring your laptop on stage there are probably better cheaper options. That being said used Electro's can be affordable and they are really fun devices to own. There is also a nice small community of people hacking on them. My current hobby project is reverse engineering the electro 5
- klodolph 3y ago
  The problem is that pure MIDI controllers are often not very good. When you pay $2,000 for a synthesizer, it can have a very good keyboard.
  - coldtea 3y ago
    If you pay $1000+ for a MIDI controller it can have a very good keyboard as well.
    - klodolph 3y ago
      It’s harder to source MIDI controllers in that price range, compared to synths.
  - jmcphers 3y ago
    This used to be true, but I don't think it is any more. The Kawai VPC1, for example, contains an incredibly nice action, costs $2,500, and is a pure MIDI controller. https://kawaius.com/product/vpc1/ https://kawaius.com/product/vpc1/
    - klodolph 3y ago
      Yeah, there are a couple exceptions. Roland used to make a popular master keyboard. My main question is why someone would want a $2500 controller, when at that price you could get something like a CP88.
    - seanp2k2 3y ago
Gordonjcp 3y ago
> I have since tried out Zynthian, and my conclusion was that with a pianoteq license and a good controller, I can have way more functionality and sounds and every thing for a small fraction of the price of that Nord. Yes, but also buy yourself a big old 90s ROMpler workstation for a couple of hundred quid, and keep it around for when you need something, I don't know, just *different*. Or if you need to do an impromptu gig and don't want to cart your super-expensive controller and super-delicate laptop to a pub. Think of it as the musical equivalent of your gardening boots.
- jtode 3y ago
  Zynthian runs on a Raspberry Pi, and with a HifiBerry sound card (<$100) I'll take the Pepsi Challenge with absolutely any expensive rig. My whole point is, you don't need to spend thousands, you can spend hundreds and get the same sounds. If you understand Midi or are willing to learn about storing snapshots and setting channels, you can set it up to be just as convenient (more convenient actually). It rewards the curious more than others, as in all nice things. My plan - I genuinely did budget myself $6k, I have several times that much in guitar gear so I do take this seriously - is to build several dedicated ones, both for redundancy and to make sure they are extremely robust. Since I can code I'm even thinking orchestration of redundant raid-like units via a digital mixer. This will all cost a small fraction of a Nord Stage 3 and if anyone steals it, I mean, good luck to em lol
jmcphers 3y ago
FWIW, I recently replaced "Pianoteq license and a good controller" with a Nord. I've found that the friction involved in getting the laptop warm and Pianoteq started/running, while relatively low, is still enough that I didn't often just sit down and play. The Nord is a simple appliance and is always there inviting me to practice. I still have the laptop and Pianoteq and use them with the Nord as a controller sometimes, when I want to work with digital music. But most of the time, the laptop stays shut, and I've found I am able to more deeply engage with the music that way.
- jtode 3y ago
  If I had the money... Well I'd probably get a Hammond actually, but I would take it if I could afford it. But I'm a lot of house repairs and more important devices away from that point lol
- seanp2k2 3y ago
  I’ve also been in that situation and considered something like a Roland Integra 7, which can be found for around $1k in good condition if one is patient and willing to buy second-hand from Japan. I already have a pretty nice Studiologic 88 key hammer controller, but using that with Ravenscroft 275 on an iPad with an interface, mixer, preamp, and the speakers in the living room (studio monitors) is still a pain to turn on and use when we want. Acoustic pianos are obviously the most immediate, but a Nord or other stage piano with powered monitors is pretty convenient too.
illumin8 3y ago
I don't think this is true at all. Apple keeps releasing amazing new features for Logic Pro and they are free. They also just released Logic Pro for the iPad, and the new M2 iPad Pros are basically more powerful than Intel Macs at this use case. Apple is clearly committed to their Pro users, but I can see why them dropping driver support for older hardware is frustrating. It's not that they are dropping driver support, it's just that the hardware manufacturers aren't updating drivers to support ARM Macs and not load as a low level kernel driver (insecure). I think your anger is a bit misplaced - maybe you should direct it towards the sound card manufacturer that refuses to update drivers for years?
- jtode 3y ago
  Or you could just get off their walled garden that assumes you have thousands of extra dollars per year to pay for their various premium lifestyle objects and services. If Apple is only concerned with Professionals, they should stop marketing to the peons.

by jtode 3y ago

timrichard 3y ago

I have a feeling of unease too. OSX occasionally warns me about third party kernel extensions, and that's not an encouraging direction of travel. I bought my audio interface precisely because RME have a reputation for writing reliable and performant drivers.

joshspankit 3y ago

> domination of music is one of the pillars of Mac's success. If they're not just neglecting that, but actively screwing with people... They've lost the plot. They’ve lost many plots. Musicians, developers, and even photographers. Apple’s playbook seems to have changed to: - Hook a demographic with functionality that’s anywhere from just good enough to excellent - Railroad them in to using as many first-part services as possible (especially if that means getting them to buy more Apple devices) - Slowly lock them down so it’s harder and harder to move to competitors (aka boil the frog) - Move staff from those first party products as the users are trapped and it’s no longer necessary for the quality to be excellent

kibwen 3y ago
Google famously discontinued Google Reader despite it having tens of millions of users because it represented a minuscule contribution to their bottom line. Apple isn't a software company, it's a phone company. Everything that isn't an iPhone represents a minuscule contribution to their bottom line. Apple doesn't give a shit about pro users, even if it's profitable, because they're too big to care.
- runjake 3y ago
  I was questioning your “Apple’s a phone company” claim, figuring services long ago surpassed iPhone sales, but in fact, services sits at about 30% of their revenue and the iPhone sits at about 55%, which is roughly 5% growth from last year!
  - utopcell 3y ago
    Services may be at 30% but their profit margin for them is >70%, more than double of what they have for hardware.
    - jtode 3y ago
      I think they were conceding the point :>
jtode 3y ago
So, Chokepoint Capitalism.

gcr 3y ago

offtopic, but what keyboard controller do you recommend? I have a cheap MIDI keyboard but the keyfeel is all wrong compared to the upright pianos I used to play as a kid. I'd like to get back into piano, and I know I struggled with phrasing/dynamics, and I worry that unweighted keys will teach me bad habits even though they're technically velocity sensitive...

sfitz 3y ago
Most MIDI keyboards aren't really made for piano performance or even really for piano practice. If you want a MIDI controller for this reason, I'd recommend going to a music store near you (if applicable) and playing a few and feeling the keys and go with the one that feels nicest for your budget.
- lsaferite 3y ago
  I bought my wife a Yamaha Arius YDP-184 and she loves it. It's not 100% like the baby grand she does lessons on, but it's close enough for most purposes. It has a MIDI interface, but it's not really easily portable.
  - illwrks 3y ago
    Seconded. My daughter plays piano, and we have one of these. The YDP line of pianos from Yamaha are very good value, obviously not the same as a grand piano but very very good for a digital piano, and has midi out.
    - mh- 3y ago
      It has midi out and presents itself as a USB audio interface. So if you go into the menu on the YDP itself and turn off the local sound, you can connect it to your laptop via USB and play virtual instruments on it, with the audio going right back out to the YDP's speakers. I thought that was super cool when I realized that.
      - 3y ago

Bad_CRC 3y ago

My Pod Studio UX 2 interface works on a M1 Ventura but most of the Line 6 software that I used (Pod Farm with multiple sound packs) doesn't works any more. I've to but Pod Farm 2.5. The software for loading patches to my Pod XT Live doesn't work either. It's an old Software that runs on... Windows 10...

moojd 3y ago

Nords are for gigging artists that want every feature accessable via physical controls on the device with minimal setup. If you are willing to bring your laptop on stage there are probably better cheaper options. That being said used Electro's can be affordable and they are really fun devices to own. There is also a nice small community of people hacking on them. My current hobby project is reverse engineering the electro 5

klodolph 3y ago
The problem is that pure MIDI controllers are often not very good. When you pay $2,000 for a synthesizer, it can have a very good keyboard.
- coldtea 3y ago
  If you pay $1000+ for a MIDI controller it can have a very good keyboard as well.
  - klodolph 3y ago
    It’s harder to source MIDI controllers in that price range, compared to synths.
- jmcphers 3y ago
  This used to be true, but I don't think it is any more. The Kawai VPC1, for example, contains an incredibly nice action, costs $2,500, and is a pure MIDI controller. https://kawaius.com/product/vpc1/ https://kawaius.com/product/vpc1/
  - klodolph 3y ago
    Yeah, there are a couple exceptions. Roland used to make a popular master keyboard. My main question is why someone would want a $2500 controller, when at that price you could get something like a CP88.
  - seanp2k2 3y ago

Gordonjcp 3y ago

> I have since tried out Zynthian, and my conclusion was that with a pianoteq license and a good controller, I can have way more functionality and sounds and every thing for a small fraction of the price of that Nord. Yes, but also buy yourself a big old 90s ROMpler workstation for a couple of hundred quid, and keep it around for when you need something, I don't know, just *different*. Or if you need to do an impromptu gig and don't want to cart your super-expensive controller and super-delicate laptop to a pub. Think of it as the musical equivalent of your gardening boots.

jtode 3y ago
Zynthian runs on a Raspberry Pi, and with a HifiBerry sound card (<$100) I'll take the Pepsi Challenge with absolutely any expensive rig. My whole point is, you don't need to spend thousands, you can spend hundreds and get the same sounds. If you understand Midi or are willing to learn about storing snapshots and setting channels, you can set it up to be just as convenient (more convenient actually). It rewards the curious more than others, as in all nice things. My plan - I genuinely did budget myself $6k, I have several times that much in guitar gear so I do take this seriously - is to build several dedicated ones, both for redundancy and to make sure they are extremely robust. Since I can code I'm even thinking orchestration of redundant raid-like units via a digital mixer. This will all cost a small fraction of a Nord Stage 3 and if anyone steals it, I mean, good luck to em lol

jmcphers 3y ago

FWIW, I recently replaced "Pianoteq license and a good controller" with a Nord. I've found that the friction involved in getting the laptop warm and Pianoteq started/running, while relatively low, is still enough that I didn't often just sit down and play. The Nord is a simple appliance and is always there inviting me to practice. I still have the laptop and Pianoteq and use them with the Nord as a controller sometimes, when I want to work with digital music. But most of the time, the laptop stays shut, and I've found I am able to more deeply engage with the music that way.

jtode 3y ago
If I had the money... Well I'd probably get a Hammond actually, but I would take it if I could afford it. But I'm a lot of house repairs and more important devices away from that point lol
seanp2k2 3y ago
I’ve also been in that situation and considered something like a Roland Integra 7, which can be found for around $1k in good condition if one is patient and willing to buy second-hand from Japan. I already have a pretty nice Studiologic 88 key hammer controller, but using that with Ravenscroft 275 on an iPad with an interface, mixer, preamp, and the speakers in the living room (studio monitors) is still a pain to turn on and use when we want. Acoustic pianos are obviously the most immediate, but a Nord or other stage piano with powered monitors is pretty convenient too.

illumin8 3y ago

I don't think this is true at all. Apple keeps releasing amazing new features for Logic Pro and they are free. They also just released Logic Pro for the iPad, and the new M2 iPad Pros are basically more powerful than Intel Macs at this use case. Apple is clearly committed to their Pro users, but I can see why them dropping driver support for older hardware is frustrating. It's not that they are dropping driver support, it's just that the hardware manufacturers aren't updating drivers to support ARM Macs and not load as a low level kernel driver (insecure). I think your anger is a bit misplaced - maybe you should direct it towards the sound card manufacturer that refuses to update drivers for years?

jtode 3y ago
Or you could just get off their walled garden that assumes you have thousands of extra dollars per year to pay for their various premium lifestyle objects and services. If Apple is only concerned with Professionals, they should stop marketing to the peons.