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I own a Push 1 and 2, although at hobbyist level. The standalone Push 3 seems a great step forward. macOS has increasingly become user-hostile when it comes to
by vemv 3y ago
I own a Push 1 and 2, although at hobbyist level.
The standalone Push 3 seems a great step forward. macOS has increasingly become user-hostile when it comes to audio (and other pro) users.
For instance I have an expensive sound card that became useless with after a minor OS upgrade. I never got to troubleshoot it or find an official solution.
That was incredibly discouraging - enough to move on to other hobbies. And I'm a programmer - don't want to imagine the pains that musicians have to go through.
- jtode 3y agoMusician here, most of us (the ones that aren't also programmers) just have to pay up the arse every time for every thing. I've been teaching myself keys the last few years and had been planning to one day get myself a big $6k stage keyboard, when I felt that I had sufficiently developed to warrant it. I have since tried out Zynthian, and my conclusion was that with a pianoteq license and a good controller, I can have way more functionality and sounds and every thing for a small fraction of the price of that Nord. Your comment is fascinating, because domination of music is one of the pillars of Mac's success. If they're not just neglecting that, but actively screwing with people... They've lost the plot. Like so many giant piles of capital masquerading as a company.
- timrichard 3y agoI have a feeling of unease too. OSX occasionally warns me about third party kernel extensions, and that's not an encouraging direction of travel. I bought my audio interface precisely because RME have a reputation for writing reliable and performant drivers.
- joshspankit 3y ago> domination of music is one of the pillars of Mac's success. If they're not just neglecting that, but actively screwing with people... They've lost the plot. They’ve lost many plots. Musicians, developers, and even photographers. Apple’s playbook seems to have changed to: - Hook a demographic with functionality that’s anywhere from just good enough to excellent - Railroad them in to using as many first-part services as possible (especially if that means getting them to buy more Apple devices) - Slowly lock them down so it’s harder and harder to move to competitors (aka boil the frog) - Move staff from those first party products as the users are trapped and it’s no longer necessary for the quality to be excellent
- kibwen 3y agoGoogle famously discontinued Google Reader despite it having tens of millions of users because it represented a minuscule contribution to their bottom line. Apple isn't a software company, it's a phone company. Everything that isn't an iPhone represents a minuscule contribution to their bottom line. Apple doesn't give a shit about pro users, even if it's profitable, because they're too big to care.
- runjake 3y agoI was questioning your “Apple’s a phone company” claim, figuring services long ago surpassed iPhone sales, but in fact, services sits at about 30% of their revenue and the iPhone sits at about 55%, which is roughly 5% growth from last year!
- jtode 3y agoSo, Chokepoint Capitalism.
- gcr 3y agoofftopic, but what keyboard controller do you recommend? I have a cheap MIDI keyboard but the keyfeel is all wrong compared to the upright pianos I used to play as a kid. I'd like to get back into piano, and I know I struggled with phrasing/dynamics, and I worry that unweighted keys will teach me bad habits even though they're technically velocity sensitive...
- sfitz 3y agoMost MIDI keyboards aren't really made for piano performance or even really for piano practice. If you want a MIDI controller for this reason, I'd recommend going to a music store near you (if applicable) and playing a few and feeling the keys and go with the one that feels nicest for your budget.
- lsaferite 3y agoI bought my wife a Yamaha Arius YDP-184 and she loves it. It's not 100% like the baby grand she does lessons on, but it's close enough for most purposes. It has a MIDI interface, but it's not really easily portable.
- illwrks 3y agoSeconded. My daughter plays piano, and we have one of these. The YDP line of pianos from Yamaha are very good value, obviously not the same as a grand piano but very very good for a digital piano, and has midi out.
- mh- 3y agoIt has midi out and presents itself as a USB audio interface. So if you go into the menu on the YDP itself and turn off the local sound, you can connect it to your laptop via USB and play virtual instruments on it, with the audio going right back out to the YDP's speakers. I thought that was super cool when I realized that.
- 3y ago
- Bad_CRC 3y agoMy Pod Studio UX 2 interface works on a M1 Ventura but most of the Line 6 software that I used (Pod Farm with multiple sound packs) doesn't works any more. I've to but Pod Farm 2.5. The software for loading patches to my Pod XT Live doesn't work either. It's an old Software that runs on... Windows 10...
- moojd 3y agoNords are for gigging artists that want every feature accessable via physical controls on the device with minimal setup. If you are willing to bring your laptop on stage there are probably better cheaper options. That being said used Electro's can be affordable and they are really fun devices to own. There is also a nice small community of people hacking on them. My current hobby project is reverse engineering the electro 5
- klodolph 3y agoThe problem is that pure MIDI controllers are often not very good. When you pay $2,000 for a synthesizer, it can have a very good keyboard.
- coldtea 3y agoIf you pay $1000+ for a MIDI controller it can have a very good keyboard as well.
- klodolph 3y agoIt’s harder to source MIDI controllers in that price range, compared to synths.
- jmcphers 3y agoThis used to be true, but I don't think it is any more. The Kawai VPC1, for example, contains an incredibly nice action, costs $2,500, and is a pure MIDI controller. https://kawaius.com/product/vpc1/ https://kawaius.com/product/vpc1/
- Gordonjcp 3y ago> I have since tried out Zynthian, and my conclusion was that with a pianoteq license and a good controller, I can have way more functionality and sounds and every thing for a small fraction of the price of that Nord. Yes, but also buy yourself a big old 90s ROMpler workstation for a couple of hundred quid, and keep it around for when you need something, I don't know, just *different*. Or if you need to do an impromptu gig and don't want to cart your super-expensive controller and super-delicate laptop to a pub. Think of it as the musical equivalent of your gardening boots.
- jtode 3y agoZynthian runs on a Raspberry Pi, and with a HifiBerry sound card (<$100) I'll take the Pepsi Challenge with absolutely any expensive rig. My whole point is, you don't need to spend thousands, you can spend hundreds and get the same sounds. If you understand Midi or are willing to learn about storing snapshots and setting channels, you can set it up to be just as convenient (more convenient actually). It rewards the curious more than others, as in all nice things. My plan - I genuinely did budget myself $6k, I have several times that much in guitar gear so I do take this seriously - is to build several dedicated ones, both for redundancy and to make sure they are extremely robust. Since I can code I'm even thinking orchestration of redundant raid-like units via a digital mixer. This will all cost a small fraction of a Nord Stage 3 and if anyone steals it, I mean, good luck to em lol
- jmcphers 3y agoFWIW, I recently replaced "Pianoteq license and a good controller" with a Nord. I've found that the friction involved in getting the laptop warm and Pianoteq started/running, while relatively low, is still enough that I didn't often just sit down and play. The Nord is a simple appliance and is always there inviting me to practice. I still have the laptop and Pianoteq and use them with the Nord as a controller sometimes, when I want to work with digital music. But most of the time, the laptop stays shut, and I've found I am able to more deeply engage with the music that way.
- jtode 3y agoIf I had the money... Well I'd probably get a Hammond actually, but I would take it if I could afford it. But I'm a lot of house repairs and more important devices away from that point lol
- seanp2k2 3y agoI’ve also been in that situation and considered something like a Roland Integra 7, which can be found for around $1k in good condition if one is patient and willing to buy second-hand from Japan. I already have a pretty nice Studiologic 88 key hammer controller, but using that with Ravenscroft 275 on an iPad with an interface, mixer, preamp, and the speakers in the living room (studio monitors) is still a pain to turn on and use when we want. Acoustic pianos are obviously the most immediate, but a Nord or other stage piano with powered monitors is pretty convenient too.
- illumin8 3y agoI don't think this is true at all. Apple keeps releasing amazing new features for Logic Pro and they are free. They also just released Logic Pro for the iPad, and the new M2 iPad Pros are basically more powerful than Intel Macs at this use case. Apple is clearly committed to their Pro users, but I can see why them dropping driver support for older hardware is frustrating. It's not that they are dropping driver support, it's just that the hardware manufacturers aren't updating drivers to support ARM Macs and not load as a low level kernel driver (insecure). I think your anger is a bit misplaced - maybe you should direct it towards the sound card manufacturer that refuses to update drivers for years?
- jtode 3y agoOr you could just get off their walled garden that assumes you have thousands of extra dollars per year to pay for their various premium lifestyle objects and services. If Apple is only concerned with Professionals, they should stop marketing to the peons.
- basisword 3y ago>> And I'm a programmer - don't want to imagine the pains that musicians have to go through. Anyone doing it professionally will check all of their plugins/hardware has support for the latest macOS version before updating.
- wodenokoto 3y agoI can promise you there are many, many professional musicians who will be first in line to upgrade their Mac. I’m a professional programmer it’s not like I test if my mouse or keyboard will work with a new windows update.
- tumult 3y agoNone of the pro musicians I know leap to update their OS like that. Some of them even keep their music machines perpetually offline. These computers are tools for music which just happen to run some OS.
- basisword 3y agoIt's very well known plugins break with OS updates. The vendors usually send emails warning against updates. Someone making music at home for fun might update on day one, but no professional studio will.
- joshspankit 3y agoLogically yes, but anyone who’s been doing it for more than a couple years has been burned by an update at least once and won’t easily make that mistake again.
- charlesrocket 3y agoThe mistake here is not the apple update but lack of backups.
- azinman2 3y agoThe mistake here is that assuming things will forever remain the same and thus you don’t need to update your software, when security enhancements require it.
- woudsma 3y agoI’m not updating my music Macbook Pro anymore, I’m still on MacOS Catalina. VST’s break, (older) audio drivers stop working, etc. I spent too much time getting everything to work as it currently is.
- efxhoy 3y agoRME?
- roblh 3y agoReally? Which soundcard? I’ve always understood the core audio stuff to be very hassle free. That sounds like a huge problem and I’m really surprised the manufacturer didn’t fix that immediately unless it’s very legacy hardware.
- klodolph 3y agoIt takes time to fix this stuff. It always has. I don’t know why. Core audio is the API. You still need a driver for the audio interface. If it’s USB class compliant, then you get a driver for free. Not all devices are class compliant (for good reasons). You would be limited to the feature set provided by the USB audio class spec.
- roblh 3y agoThat’s true, but not working on Mac for a high end sound card is pretty catastrophic. I can’t think of any reputable brand besides maybe Antelope that has ever been straight up broken like that for any significant length of time. There would be riots on the audio forums if UAD or Motu or anyone else had that happen. I’m not an apple apologist, I use a PC for music production, it’s just surprising to me is all. I’m curious about what sound card it is so I can either avoid it or dig deeper into why. I also think some of the comments in this thread about audio people never upgrading are a little dated. Maybe 10 years ago it was more common for someone to sit on an ancient version of Protools if they were a full time studio, but most of the market is hobbyists and semi professionals who have a single personal MacBook or PC that they use for everything, not just recording. Airgapping something like that isn’t really an option.
- klodolph 3y agoMOTU drivers didn’t work for months when some recent macOS came out. I think it was Catalina. Audio people “never” upgrading is a bit extreme. But it is still extremely common to delay updates until you know that your gear works with the new OS. We’re not necessarily talking about some ancient version of Pro Tools here, but maybe a couple plugins you use that are getting long in the tooth. Maybe you would like to upgrade them, but you’d need to pay.
- pier25 3y agoWhat audio interface were you using?
- nr2x 3y agoThe biggest issue with Mac is they manage to break device drivers every 12 months like clockwork. On the other hand, Logic Pro is an absolute steal at the price they charge, and it’s gotten some huge (and free) updates.
- arvinsim 3y agoIf they decide to go subscription, the value proposition will be different
- coldtea 3y ago>macOS has increasingly become user-hostile when it comes to audio Like?
- throwaway675309 3y agoI have a MacBook M1 Max that has been nothing but a pain in the ass when it comes to the core audio. Anytime I attempt to use soft synths that peg the CPU at about 40 to 50%, the speakers will start to occasionally crackle/pop completely disrupting my flow. Apparently it's not a completely unheard of problem no pun intended. I've had to go back to my windows machine (bitwig and FL) + MOTU, and pretty much abandoned Mac music with logic pro completely. Really ticks me off.
- readlikeasloth 3y agoSame here. Tried to connect an old Midiman Midi interface to a recent MacOs. Oh boy. Someone built a driver and I´m grateful for that but it was quite something to get the thing working. It seemed to me a waste to buy a new piece of hardware for some antique technology like Midi, just because the driver of the old interface was not working any more. I don´t mind dealing with pain caused by computers in my day job. But in my free time as a musician all those technological hassles are a hindrance of creativity.