6 ms·

There are distros like Linux Mint that are desnapped. Wouldn't it be more sensible to base off of something like that? I really like Debian. I love making mini

by geokon 3y ago

There are distros like Linux Mint that are desnapped. Wouldn't it be more sensible to base off of something like that? I really like Debian. I love making minimal riced desktops with it. You can make a system that runs without Python :)) But Debian has two main issues: First is the reality that everyone targets Ubuntu first and all online instructions are Ubuntu first. If you build off Ubuntu then you can be relatively sure the instructions work for you as well. The latest Ubuntu LTS package/library version set is one most projects will support Second is that Debian doesn't have PPAs, nor really any equivalent mechanism. You end up having to resort to Appimages for end-user executables and who-knows-what for everything else. Prompt updates are then sorta out and it turns into a manual pain in the butt

MindSpunk 3y ago
Relying on AppImages/flatpack/etc for apps is a feature of immutable distros like VanillaOS, not a bug. The point is you never mess with the base system image. The goal is to leave the root as untouched as possible, with a transactional modification system when you absolutely must poke at the base system image, and install everything using your app packing format of choice. Fedora Silverblue is another distro following the same 'immutable' principle based on OSTree. Silverblue wants the base system to be immutable, bundling in toolbox (similar to distrobox) to create a container with a regular mutable sysroot that can use the regular package managers. If you break the container you can tear it down and build a fresh one without nuking your host OS. The goal is a reliable base system image that you can't break. It's something I've had happen many times with standard distros. Updating when too far behind is fairly likely to break something. 'Compatibility with Ubuntu' doesn't really matter as the system is already different enough even when based of Ubuntu for just googling 'issue Ubuntu' isn't going to be applicable. Do that stuff in a distrobox container.
- geokon 3y ago
  Okay after reading more about VanillaOS I can see my concerns aren't relevant. Thanks for pointing it out... Wish I could delete the comment now
  - MindSpunk 3y ago
    It is a fair criticism though. Immutable distros are pretty new in the landscape of desktop linux distros so googling issues for them won't give you a lot of answers. And a side-effect of what they are means a lot of the time the answer to "how to do X to the system" is "you don't". They're reliant on having a solid base system image because changing it isn't very user friendly. I say this as a Fedora Silverblue user, I personally think the tradeoff is worth it for me.
Nursie 3y ago
> Second is that Debian doesn't have PPAs, nor really any equivalent mechanism. You can, at your own risk, use ubuntu PPAs in debian. Also some projects publish their own debian repos - I have google chrome and terraform coming from custom repos at the moment, that's the real PPA equivalent. I've been using debian for decades and I don't even know what an Appimage is ... but then I guess for commercial software I'm OK with snap. Intellij, skype, zoom, whatever can come from there. OSS comes from the distro repo.
spookie 3y ago
Debian has a great track record, and serves has a base for a lot of distros. It's understandable. Even Ubuntu is/was based on it.
prmoustache 3y ago
online instructions to what? Also, the alternatives to PPAs are ... third party APT repositories. There is no technical difference to the users. PPA is just a hosting service from ubuntu.
aragilar 3y ago
PPAs is what launchpad calls apt repositories. It's possible to use launchpad to host apt repositories for Debian stable suites (testing/unstable would likely be more of a pain, but I haven't tried that) by specifying what suites to use when uploading. There are other SaaS hosts of apt repositories (e.g. packagecloud), or you can install one of the apt repository systems via apt on a VPS or similar, so if you have a deb built for Debian, there are options out there to distribute it.
gnufx 3y ago
You can build and publish repos for Debian (amongst others) on the OpenSUSE build system, though it's rather different from ppa and copr, for instance. Use osc(1) on Debian.
ye-olde-sysrq 3y ago
"First is the reality that everyone targets Ubuntu first [...]" Imo this is changing. You're seeing it happen even in this thread.

by geokon 3y ago

MindSpunk 3y ago

Relying on AppImages/flatpack/etc for apps is a feature of immutable distros like VanillaOS, not a bug. The point is you never mess with the base system image. The goal is to leave the root as untouched as possible, with a transactional modification system when you absolutely must poke at the base system image, and install everything using your app packing format of choice. Fedora Silverblue is another distro following the same 'immutable' principle based on OSTree. Silverblue wants the base system to be immutable, bundling in toolbox (similar to distrobox) to create a container with a regular mutable sysroot that can use the regular package managers. If you break the container you can tear it down and build a fresh one without nuking your host OS. The goal is a reliable base system image that you can't break. It's something I've had happen many times with standard distros. Updating when too far behind is fairly likely to break something. 'Compatibility with Ubuntu' doesn't really matter as the system is already different enough even when based of Ubuntu for just googling 'issue Ubuntu' isn't going to be applicable. Do that stuff in a distrobox container.

geokon 3y ago
Okay after reading more about VanillaOS I can see my concerns aren't relevant. Thanks for pointing it out... Wish I could delete the comment now
- MindSpunk 3y ago
  It is a fair criticism though. Immutable distros are pretty new in the landscape of desktop linux distros so googling issues for them won't give you a lot of answers. And a side-effect of what they are means a lot of the time the answer to "how to do X to the system" is "you don't". They're reliant on having a solid base system image because changing it isn't very user friendly. I say this as a Fedora Silverblue user, I personally think the tradeoff is worth it for me.

Nursie 3y ago

> Second is that Debian doesn't have PPAs, nor really any equivalent mechanism. You can, at your own risk, use ubuntu PPAs in debian. Also some projects publish their own debian repos - I have google chrome and terraform coming from custom repos at the moment, that's the real PPA equivalent. I've been using debian for decades and I don't even know what an Appimage is ... but then I guess for commercial software I'm OK with snap. Intellij, skype, zoom, whatever can come from there. OSS comes from the distro repo.

spookie 3y ago

Debian has a great track record, and serves has a base for a lot of distros. It's understandable. Even Ubuntu is/was based on it.

prmoustache 3y ago

online instructions to what? Also, the alternatives to PPAs are ... third party APT repositories. There is no technical difference to the users. PPA is just a hosting service from ubuntu.

aragilar 3y ago

PPAs is what launchpad calls apt repositories. It's possible to use launchpad to host apt repositories for Debian stable suites (testing/unstable would likely be more of a pain, but I haven't tried that) by specifying what suites to use when uploading. There are other SaaS hosts of apt repositories (e.g. packagecloud), or you can install one of the apt repository systems via apt on a VPS or similar, so if you have a deb built for Debian, there are options out there to distribute it.

gnufx 3y ago

You can build and publish repos for Debian (amongst others) on the OpenSUSE build system, though it's rather different from ppa and copr, for instance. Use osc(1) on Debian.

ye-olde-sysrq 3y ago

"First is the reality that everyone targets Ubuntu first [...]" Imo this is changing. You're seeing it happen even in this thread.