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VCs aren't risking their own money. But yes, on the whole active investors must make less than passive ones if fees are included. CEOs are hardly the only ones

VCs aren't risking their own money. But yes, on the whole active investors must make less than passive ones if fees are included. CEOs are hardly the only ones with health issues from their jobs. Hell Amazon specifically is so insanely bad about this that Bernie has basically been taking just about them in regards to an exploitive employer that leaves people disabled. Maybe we shouldn't be normalizing unsustainable work that creates health problems for people, whether at the CEO or the regular worker level.

robomartin 3y ago
> VCs aren't risking their own money. First, that isn't universally true. Also, the term "VC" is often used to mean "investors". I think I can say that the history of most businesses does not start with VC's that manage hundreds of millions of dollars not belonging to them. Business is hard, very hard. There are very few dorm-to-unicorn stories like Facebook. Even then, the Facebook story isn't about pink unicorns and lollypops for everyone from day one. That's the major fallacy in these ideologies that vilify business. They don't come from a framework that really understands what is entailed in running and funding a non-trivial organization and making it successful in a globally competitive market. > Maybe we shouldn't be normalizing unsustainable work that creates health problems for people, whether at the CEO or the regular worker level. Suggestion: Go work at a farm for a summer. I don't know of any competitive job of any kind that does not bring with it stress. Let's be careful not to manufacture fantasies. It's the "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" idea. I know someone who is theoretically worth nearly $800MM who has problems the average office worker would not want to ever have to face on a daily basis. The grass isn't always greener. It seldom is. To add to that from a personal anecdote. I started a business back in 2000. It was a hardware/software business. I was locked in my garage 18 hours a day, 7 days a week for 18 months before I could ship our first product. Six month after shipping, and with some sales in the bank, I decided to get a new car. My old car had 200K miles and I could not even consider upgrading it before. I was talking to a neighbor a couple of weeks after that. He said something like "Wow! You must have hit the jackpot. Did you get a new job?". You see, from the outside, nobody sees the 18 hour days, 7 days a week, 18 month effort, struggle, pain, suffering, sleepless nights, crying, self-doubt, family problems, financial risk, etc. All they see is Martin driving a new car he did not have for the last five years. That's all they process. They have no clue, at all, none, of what it took to get there --and to stay there.
- somsak2 3y ago
  sorry to hear about the overwork. 18 hours a day is likely a pretty big exaggeration, though (hopefully?) not purposeful. interesting graph for this -- https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/10/study-people-claiming-to-work-more-than-70-hours-a-week-are-totally-lying-probably/263825/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/10/study-p... as for working on a farm, I'd actually say that's making my point. we should be trying to automate this work away so that folks don't have to grind it out like it's the 1200s. probably not too stressful tho
  - robomartin 3y ago
    > 18 hours a day is likely a pretty big exaggeration Nope, not at all. Some days it was 20 (rarely). When you have to do the job of 5 engineers the only path is to be extremely well organized, driven and be willing to put in the time. > I'd actually say that's making my point > probably not too stressful tho I guess I didn't make it clear enough. I used farm work as one of the simplest and oldest types of work in history. It is hard work. I would not dare say it isn't stressful. My greater point is that what you are asking for simply does not exist. You are not going to be able to remove stress from work, no matter where people are working, at the field, a factory, warehouse or the office. A couple of decades ago I got what I thought was my "dream job". I was miserable for six months, when I left. I could not wait to find something else. I thought my prior work was stressful and the new job would be wonderful. It sure taught me a different perspective on my assumptions.
    - dxbydt 3y ago
      Martin, I really enjoy your posts & feel compelled to respond. I think the pushback is primarily on process, not results. Like, you do these 18 hour stints & get the millions & then land up, like you say, in the hospital. Or you could, you know, not put in 18 hours & not have millions & stay out of the hospital. There is that option too. In the midwest where I live, me & my neighbors aren't exactly phoning it in. We log into slack promptly at 9:30 and pick up the assigned jira tickets & git checkin & review the PRs & so forth. But come 5:30 its time for the family. Play outside with the kids, then an hour of TV, then some dinner & off to bed. It works. I don't see the need to complicate life in the fashion you advocate. To what end ? I'd rather spend more time with my wife & kids than hack on pytorch. I think what you are seeing in the millennials is the same sort of dialing back on ambition, not some passionate embrace of marxism. People are just tired. Cut them some slack.

robomartin 3y ago

> VCs aren't risking their own money. First, that isn't universally true. Also, the term "VC" is often used to mean "investors". I think I can say that the history of most businesses does not start with VC's that manage hundreds of millions of dollars not belonging to them. Business is hard, very hard. There are very few dorm-to-unicorn stories like Facebook. Even then, the Facebook story isn't about pink unicorns and lollypops for everyone from day one. That's the major fallacy in these ideologies that vilify business. They don't come from a framework that really understands what is entailed in running and funding a non-trivial organization and making it successful in a globally competitive market. > Maybe we shouldn't be normalizing unsustainable work that creates health problems for people, whether at the CEO or the regular worker level. Suggestion: Go work at a farm for a summer. I don't know of any competitive job of any kind that does not bring with it stress. Let's be careful not to manufacture fantasies. It's the "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" idea. I know someone who is theoretically worth nearly $800MM who has problems the average office worker would not want to ever have to face on a daily basis. The grass isn't always greener. It seldom is. To add to that from a personal anecdote. I started a business back in 2000. It was a hardware/software business. I was locked in my garage 18 hours a day, 7 days a week for 18 months before I could ship our first product. Six month after shipping, and with some sales in the bank, I decided to get a new car. My old car had 200K miles and I could not even consider upgrading it before. I was talking to a neighbor a couple of weeks after that. He said something like "Wow! You must have hit the jackpot. Did you get a new job?". You see, from the outside, nobody sees the 18 hour days, 7 days a week, 18 month effort, struggle, pain, suffering, sleepless nights, crying, self-doubt, family problems, financial risk, etc. All they see is Martin driving a new car he did not have for the last five years. That's all they process. They have no clue, at all, none, of what it took to get there --and to stay there.

somsak2 3y ago
sorry to hear about the overwork. 18 hours a day is likely a pretty big exaggeration, though (hopefully?) not purposeful. interesting graph for this -- https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/10/study-people-claiming-to-work-more-than-70-hours-a-week-are-totally-lying-probably/263825/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/10/study-p... as for working on a farm, I'd actually say that's making my point. we should be trying to automate this work away so that folks don't have to grind it out like it's the 1200s. probably not too stressful tho
- robomartin 3y ago
  > 18 hours a day is likely a pretty big exaggeration Nope, not at all. Some days it was 20 (rarely). When you have to do the job of 5 engineers the only path is to be extremely well organized, driven and be willing to put in the time. > I'd actually say that's making my point > probably not too stressful tho I guess I didn't make it clear enough. I used farm work as one of the simplest and oldest types of work in history. It is hard work. I would not dare say it isn't stressful. My greater point is that what you are asking for simply does not exist. You are not going to be able to remove stress from work, no matter where people are working, at the field, a factory, warehouse or the office. A couple of decades ago I got what I thought was my "dream job". I was miserable for six months, when I left. I could not wait to find something else. I thought my prior work was stressful and the new job would be wonderful. It sure taught me a different perspective on my assumptions.
  - dxbydt 3y ago
    Martin, I really enjoy your posts & feel compelled to respond. I think the pushback is primarily on process, not results. Like, you do these 18 hour stints & get the millions & then land up, like you say, in the hospital. Or you could, you know, not put in 18 hours & not have millions & stay out of the hospital. There is that option too. In the midwest where I live, me & my neighbors aren't exactly phoning it in. We log into slack promptly at 9:30 and pick up the assigned jira tickets & git checkin & review the PRs & so forth. But come 5:30 its time for the family. Play outside with the kids, then an hour of TV, then some dinner & off to bed. It works. I don't see the need to complicate life in the fashion you advocate. To what end ? I'd rather spend more time with my wife & kids than hack on pytorch. I think what you are seeing in the millennials is the same sort of dialing back on ambition, not some passionate embrace of marxism. People are just tired. Cut them some slack.