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Actual Buddhist monk here (Ajahn Subharo), in the Theravada Thai forest lineage. Khemarato Bhikkhu - who is much more junior a monk than me, and is not formally

by esbeeb 3y ago

Actual Buddhist monk here (Ajahn Subharo), in the Theravada Thai forest lineage. Khemarato Bhikkhu - who is much more junior a monk than me, and is not formally any sort of Ajahn (teacher) yet - and myself both have Computer Science degrees, which are rare things for Buddhist monks to have. So take his authority to run a "university" with a huge grain of salt. He would get roundly mocked in subtle ways by senior Buddhist monks if he thinks he has the seniority to be the "dean" of a "university". It's only once you have 10 years seniority that one, as a Theravada monk, earns the title of "Elder" ("Thera", an ancient Pali word in the Pali Canon), or an "Ajahn" (a Thai word simply meaning teacher, roughly corresponding to that same 10 years seniority). I've never met him in person, but have cordially chatted with him a few times in the internet. We're both on Mastodon: Him: https://digipres.club/@obu https://digipres.club/@obu Myself: https://mstdn.ca/@sbb https://mstdn.ca/@sbb

temptemptemp111 3y ago
[dead]
jeremyt 3y ago
I’m confused. Are you saying that the content on the site is not accurate?
- EddieEngineers 3y ago
  I googled and found they created the site with one years experience, or around three years at the moment. Take from that what you will.
  - magicpin 3y ago
    That’s not really an answer.
- esbeeb 3y ago
  I've taken a look at only a small portion of all the things which he's posted on his site. So I can't vouch for everything there, giving all the content of the site a wholehearted endorsement or not. From what I saw, yes, it seemed quite solid, and doesn't misrepresent Theravada views.
fblp 3y ago
Thanks for your comment. Can you speak to the quality of the content on the site? I would hope that's more important than the "authority" of the author.
logicchains 3y ago
That doesn't sound like a very Buddhist thing to say? I thought Buddhists were supposed to be about "no ego", not "don't listen to this guy because I'm more senior/got more titles than him".
- wraptile 3y ago
  Spending 5 years in Thailand I've learned that Buddhism while funamentally different from other religions in the best ways operates just the same in practical reality. It's almost like classification and status is inherit to any group activity and not in a good way unfortunately. To give perspective on the "dark" side of Buddhism I highly recommend "Come and See" documentary on Netflix which is hard to explain without spoilers but it's a great illustration of how everything evolves into a crab eventually.
  - snthpy 3y ago
    It's not on my Netflix unfortunately and I just find this Russian anti war film: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Come_and_See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Come_and_See
    - wraptile 3y ago
      Seems like it's only available on Netflix in Thailand. So you'd need a VPN that has a server in Thailand or find it somewhere else. Here's the IMDB page though: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10985730/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10985730/
  - snthpy 3y ago
    Found it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Come_and_See_(2019_film) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Come_and_See_(2019_film)
  - laratied 3y ago
    The idea of collections of humans without hierarchy is beyond delusional. I am a Buddhist but it is hard to say I am serious or I would be living alone in the woods. Nearly all Buddhist teachings IMO are bullshit and just enforcing natural hierarchy. Sogyal Rinpoche telling his female students he is going to give them a dharma lesson by sleeping with him. In a metaphorical sense though I think that is what most students are looking for actually too and of course they find it. For me personally, I don't want to wake up yet. I am still enjoying this dream.
fnordpiglet 3y ago
I would note he’s not claiming to be a teacher or a dean or claiming anything other than: Khemarato Bhikkhu (Chief Librarian) I’d note also he’s not written anything of his own “teaching” but instead provides a curated set of texts. I think the wise thing to do in these situations is to carefully review what you’re going to criticize publicly to be certain your accusations are merited. As a lay student of Buddhism for the past 30 years I find these resources well selected and presented and find no cause to diminish the contribution towards informal dharma education. I also have never been a huge fan of the implicit and explicit hierarchy of the sangha. Buddha detailed how a huge range of students became enlightened and began teaching, including students who were otherwise very dumb but immediately grasped his teachings and became profoundly influential teachers. IMO, the entrenchment of status and hierarchy impedes the practice and shows a system of institutionalized attachments. In my practice I’ve found wisdom in anyone who has wisdom that helps me understand what distracts me from nonthinking and non attachment to self and unacceptance of what is. The sangha deserve the respect they earn by pursuing the path and being the keepers and teachers of the buddhas teachings. But I sometimes think that respect translates into deviation from those same teachings in the sangha itself (not withstanding the luxury cars and wives and things you see outside forest).
- esbeeb 3y ago
  > Khemarato Bhikkhu (Chief Librarian) ...well then, it would make more sense to me, that he call his collection of very likeable, commendable Dhamma resources a "library", rather than a "university".
  - tomrod 3y ago
    A universal undertaking is built in small steps toward a larger vision. My gratitude to the Librarian seeking to establish a place for people to learn advanced topics, appropriately named a university.
  - fnordpiglet 3y ago
    It’s just a title to a web page meant to be interesting. Regardless, he didn’t represent himself as a teacher. He didn’t teach. He represented himself as a curator of a webpage, and the tittle of the page I don’t think it meant to be misleading just compelling. It’s a bit of a stretch to take it any other way, and a shifting of the goal posts. I think if you agree he didn’t do as you said he did, it isn’t self diminishing (after all the self is an illusion!) to simply state there was a misunderstanding.
eclectic29 3y ago
Wow! I mean it's good to know that he has only a few yrs of experience but to say that take his website with a grain of salt is definitely not the most Buddhist way.
- EddieEngineers 3y ago
  I don’t know… I think talking from a point of authority with a year or twos experience is very HN-ish of the OP, and if someone’s dedicating their life to a spiritual journey then they are going to rightfully want to make sure people know a ‘university’ is possibly wrong on those topics. Could have been said with more tact for sure
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- oh_sigh 3y ago
  Maybe it is exactly the Buddhist way? OP has been a monk for 15 years, so I imagine he's fairly deep in it.
p-e-w 3y ago
> So take his authority to run a "university" with a huge grain of salt. What does "authority" mean in a Buddhist context? From what little I know about it, Buddhism isn't like the Catholic church, where everything is a hierarchical pyramid with a single individual at the top, through which authoritative declarations can be made. Plus, schools like Theravada and Zen seem to differ quite significantly from each other, so an authority according to one might be a heretic according to the other. So how is authority assigned in practice, and is it universally recognized among all people who call themselves "Buddhists"?
- esbeeb 3y ago
  >What does "authority" mean in a Buddhist context? That's a fantastic question, and the short answer is: "given my expertise is in the Theravada world... how authority works is complicated". An overly simplistic answer is: the number of years of a monk's seniority is the easy and fairly-reliable gauge of a monk's authority. It would take a good 1-hour Dhamma Talk for me to explain what I know. Most people would be bored, and possibly even uninspired after hearing the non-tldr answer. Do you really want the non-tldr answer?
  - org3 3y ago
    I do!
    - esbeeb 3y ago
      https://bhikkhu.ca/buddhism/video/2023/06/01/Dhamma_Talk_113.html https://bhikkhu.ca/buddhism/video/2023/06/01/Dhamma_Talk_113...
  - p-e-w 3y ago
    > the number of years of a monk's seniority is the easy and fairly-reliable gauge of a monk's authority Authority, or expertise? Authority requires either enforcement, or widespread recognition, or both. The government has authority because it has the ability to use violence. Doctors have authority because most people view them as authority figures. Does the average Buddhist say "that monk has X years of seniority, so I'm going to take him by his word"?
nxpnsv 3y ago
I don't know much about Buddhism, but that thing sure is no University. However, maybe this is missing the point. As you are qualified, what do you think about the content? Would this be a good place for me to learn about Buddhism?
- esbeeb 3y ago
  I've taken a look at only a small portion of all the things which he's posted on his site. So I can't vouch for everything there, giving all the content of the site a wholehearted endorsement or not. From what I saw, yes, it seemed quite solid, and doesn't misrepresent Theravada views. > Would this be a good place for me to learn about Buddhism? It wouldn't hurt, as a start. If you want to learn more about it on an experiential level, I would suggest going on a meditation retreat, ideally one which is 10 days long, run by an organization with a good reputation.
  - denton-scratch 3y ago
    I would definitely not recommend a ten-day retreat to a beginner.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
fogzen 3y ago
There are no rules against publishing or teaching dhamma in the vinaya except for the (outdated) rules about which specific persons cannot be taught. “Monks, do not wage wordy warfare, saying: 'You don't understand this Dhamma and discipline, I understand this Dhamma and discipline'; 'How could you understand it? You have fallen into wrong practices: I have the right practice'; 'You have said afterwards what you should have said first, and you have said first what you should have said afterwards';[1] 'What I say is consistent, what you say isn't'; 'What you have thought out for so long is entirely reversed'; 'Your statement is refuted'; 'You are talking rubbish!'; 'You are in the wrong'; 'Get out of that if you can!' "Why should you not do this? Such talk, monks, is not related to the goal, it is not fundamental to the holy life, does not conduce to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, tranquillity, higher knowledge, enlightenment or to Nibbana. When you have discussions, monks, you should discuss Suffering, the Arising of Suffering, its Cessation, and the Path that leads to its Cessation. Why is that? Because such talk is related to the goal... it conduces to disenchantment... to Nibbana. This is the task you must accomplish” https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.009.wlsh.html https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.009.wl... Also please read https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-pc2/en/brahmali?layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-pc2/en/brahmali?layout...
NovaDudely 3y ago
One thing that I have heard many times from Ajahn Brahm here in Oz was that when it comes to Buddhist stories, professors are generally seen as negative. That would explain why so few Computer Science degrees. ;) Ok here is my go to Buddhist computer joke. You do know that Buddhist are not forbidden from using email, only they can have 'no attachments'. Ahem... I will see myself out.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- kcartlidge 3y ago
  Nice to hear Ajahn Brahm mentioned; I really appreciate the clarity of his writing style.
kome 3y ago
your comment is involuntarily funny for some reason, not because anything you say, but because of the tone :) you talk of buddhism like a computer scientists would do, HN-style
dhoe 3y ago
It's great that he's able to build such a useful resource despite the lack of seniority then. I guess some elders who try to protect themselves from the winning enthusiasm of youth can be found in many environments.
wanderingmind 3y ago
Oh yes appeal to authority (or seniority). What can go wrong
koonsolo 3y ago
> He would get roundly mocked in subtle ways by senior Buddhist monks I only know a bit about buddhism, but mocking people doesn't sound like 'senior' behaviour to me. Mocking people is very immature. I cannot imagine that someone like Thich Nhat Hanh would mock anyone.
- FollowingTheDao 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - koonsolo 3y ago
    Nice excuse for behaving like a jerk. "I was just testing you"
- amadeuspagel 3y ago
  Aren't zen parables often about the master mocking the student?
  - koonsolo 3y ago
    Can you give an example?
esbeeb 3y ago
For those interested in an answer to the great question "What does 'authority' mean in a Buddhist context?" After about 15 hours of work, I've posted a 1.5hr video with many slides answering it: https://bhikkhu.ca/buddhism/video/2023/06/01/Dhamma_Talk_113.html https://bhikkhu.ca/buddhism/video/2023/06/01/Dhamma_Talk_113...
ArturoVM 3y ago
With respect, Bhante, it is not fitting of a monk to criticize another monk in this way in public. I do not know venerable Khemarato, nor his teachings, but I would humbly suggest that if you’re concerned about people being misled in the Dhamma by that website, it’s better to focus on the content.

by esbeeb 3y ago

temptemptemp111 3y ago

[dead]

jeremyt 3y ago

I’m confused. Are you saying that the content on the site is not accurate?

EddieEngineers 3y ago
I googled and found they created the site with one years experience, or around three years at the moment. Take from that what you will.
- magicpin 3y ago
  That’s not really an answer.
esbeeb 3y ago
I've taken a look at only a small portion of all the things which he's posted on his site. So I can't vouch for everything there, giving all the content of the site a wholehearted endorsement or not. From what I saw, yes, it seemed quite solid, and doesn't misrepresent Theravada views.

fblp 3y ago

Thanks for your comment. Can you speak to the quality of the content on the site? I would hope that's more important than the "authority" of the author.

logicchains 3y ago

That doesn't sound like a very Buddhist thing to say? I thought Buddhists were supposed to be about "no ego", not "don't listen to this guy because I'm more senior/got more titles than him".

wraptile 3y ago
Spending 5 years in Thailand I've learned that Buddhism while funamentally different from other religions in the best ways operates just the same in practical reality. It's almost like classification and status is inherit to any group activity and not in a good way unfortunately. To give perspective on the "dark" side of Buddhism I highly recommend "Come and See" documentary on Netflix which is hard to explain without spoilers but it's a great illustration of how everything evolves into a crab eventually.
- snthpy 3y ago
  It's not on my Netflix unfortunately and I just find this Russian anti war film: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Come_and_See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Come_and_See
  - wraptile 3y ago
    Seems like it's only available on Netflix in Thailand. So you'd need a VPN that has a server in Thailand or find it somewhere else. Here's the IMDB page though: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10985730/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10985730/
- snthpy 3y ago
  Found it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Come_and_See_(2019_film) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Come_and_See_(2019_film)
- laratied 3y ago
  The idea of collections of humans without hierarchy is beyond delusional. I am a Buddhist but it is hard to say I am serious or I would be living alone in the woods. Nearly all Buddhist teachings IMO are bullshit and just enforcing natural hierarchy. Sogyal Rinpoche telling his female students he is going to give them a dharma lesson by sleeping with him. In a metaphorical sense though I think that is what most students are looking for actually too and of course they find it. For me personally, I don't want to wake up yet. I am still enjoying this dream.

fnordpiglet 3y ago

I would note he’s not claiming to be a teacher or a dean or claiming anything other than: Khemarato Bhikkhu (Chief Librarian) I’d note also he’s not written anything of his own “teaching” but instead provides a curated set of texts. I think the wise thing to do in these situations is to carefully review what you’re going to criticize publicly to be certain your accusations are merited. As a lay student of Buddhism for the past 30 years I find these resources well selected and presented and find no cause to diminish the contribution towards informal dharma education. I also have never been a huge fan of the implicit and explicit hierarchy of the sangha. Buddha detailed how a huge range of students became enlightened and began teaching, including students who were otherwise very dumb but immediately grasped his teachings and became profoundly influential teachers. IMO, the entrenchment of status and hierarchy impedes the practice and shows a system of institutionalized attachments. In my practice I’ve found wisdom in anyone who has wisdom that helps me understand what distracts me from nonthinking and non attachment to self and unacceptance of what is. The sangha deserve the respect they earn by pursuing the path and being the keepers and teachers of the buddhas teachings. But I sometimes think that respect translates into deviation from those same teachings in the sangha itself (not withstanding the luxury cars and wives and things you see outside forest).

esbeeb 3y ago
> Khemarato Bhikkhu (Chief Librarian) ...well then, it would make more sense to me, that he call his collection of very likeable, commendable Dhamma resources a "library", rather than a "university".
- tomrod 3y ago
  A universal undertaking is built in small steps toward a larger vision. My gratitude to the Librarian seeking to establish a place for people to learn advanced topics, appropriately named a university.
- fnordpiglet 3y ago
  It’s just a title to a web page meant to be interesting. Regardless, he didn’t represent himself as a teacher. He didn’t teach. He represented himself as a curator of a webpage, and the tittle of the page I don’t think it meant to be misleading just compelling. It’s a bit of a stretch to take it any other way, and a shifting of the goal posts. I think if you agree he didn’t do as you said he did, it isn’t self diminishing (after all the self is an illusion!) to simply state there was a misunderstanding.

eclectic29 3y ago

Wow! I mean it's good to know that he has only a few yrs of experience but to say that take his website with a grain of salt is definitely not the most Buddhist way.

EddieEngineers 3y ago
I don’t know… I think talking from a point of authority with a year or twos experience is very HN-ish of the OP, and if someone’s dedicating their life to a spiritual journey then they are going to rightfully want to make sure people know a ‘university’ is possibly wrong on those topics. Could have been said with more tact for sure
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
oh_sigh 3y ago
Maybe it is exactly the Buddhist way? OP has been a monk for 15 years, so I imagine he's fairly deep in it.

p-e-w 3y ago

> So take his authority to run a "university" with a huge grain of salt. What does "authority" mean in a Buddhist context? From what little I know about it, Buddhism isn't like the Catholic church, where everything is a hierarchical pyramid with a single individual at the top, through which authoritative declarations can be made. Plus, schools like Theravada and Zen seem to differ quite significantly from each other, so an authority according to one might be a heretic according to the other. So how is authority assigned in practice, and is it universally recognized among all people who call themselves "Buddhists"?

esbeeb 3y ago
>What does "authority" mean in a Buddhist context? That's a fantastic question, and the short answer is: "given my expertise is in the Theravada world... how authority works is complicated". An overly simplistic answer is: the number of years of a monk's seniority is the easy and fairly-reliable gauge of a monk's authority. It would take a good 1-hour Dhamma Talk for me to explain what I know. Most people would be bored, and possibly even uninspired after hearing the non-tldr answer. Do you really want the non-tldr answer?
- org3 3y ago
  I do!
  - esbeeb 3y ago
    https://bhikkhu.ca/buddhism/video/2023/06/01/Dhamma_Talk_113.html https://bhikkhu.ca/buddhism/video/2023/06/01/Dhamma_Talk_113...
- p-e-w 3y ago
  > the number of years of a monk's seniority is the easy and fairly-reliable gauge of a monk's authority Authority, or expertise? Authority requires either enforcement, or widespread recognition, or both. The government has authority because it has the ability to use violence. Doctors have authority because most people view them as authority figures. Does the average Buddhist say "that monk has X years of seniority, so I'm going to take him by his word"?

nxpnsv 3y ago

I don't know much about Buddhism, but that thing sure is no University. However, maybe this is missing the point. As you are qualified, what do you think about the content? Would this be a good place for me to learn about Buddhism?

esbeeb 3y ago
I've taken a look at only a small portion of all the things which he's posted on his site. So I can't vouch for everything there, giving all the content of the site a wholehearted endorsement or not. From what I saw, yes, it seemed quite solid, and doesn't misrepresent Theravada views. > Would this be a good place for me to learn about Buddhism? It wouldn't hurt, as a start. If you want to learn more about it on an experiential level, I would suggest going on a meditation retreat, ideally one which is 10 days long, run by an organization with a good reputation.
- denton-scratch 3y ago
  I would definitely not recommend a ten-day retreat to a beginner.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

fogzen 3y ago

There are no rules against publishing or teaching dhamma in the vinaya except for the (outdated) rules about which specific persons cannot be taught. “Monks, do not wage wordy warfare, saying: 'You don't understand this Dhamma and discipline, I understand this Dhamma and discipline'; 'How could you understand it? You have fallen into wrong practices: I have the right practice'; 'You have said afterwards what you should have said first, and you have said first what you should have said afterwards';[1] 'What I say is consistent, what you say isn't'; 'What you have thought out for so long is entirely reversed'; 'Your statement is refuted'; 'You are talking rubbish!'; 'You are in the wrong'; 'Get out of that if you can!' "Why should you not do this? Such talk, monks, is not related to the goal, it is not fundamental to the holy life, does not conduce to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, tranquillity, higher knowledge, enlightenment or to Nibbana. When you have discussions, monks, you should discuss Suffering, the Arising of Suffering, its Cessation, and the Path that leads to its Cessation. Why is that? Because such talk is related to the goal... it conduces to disenchantment... to Nibbana. This is the task you must accomplish” https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.009.wlsh.html https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.009.wl... Also please read https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-pc2/en/brahmali?layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-pc2/en/brahmali?layout...

NovaDudely 3y ago

One thing that I have heard many times from Ajahn Brahm here in Oz was that when it comes to Buddhist stories, professors are generally seen as negative. That would explain why so few Computer Science degrees. ;) Ok here is my go to Buddhist computer joke. You do know that Buddhist are not forbidden from using email, only they can have 'no attachments'. Ahem... I will see myself out.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
kcartlidge 3y ago
Nice to hear Ajahn Brahm mentioned; I really appreciate the clarity of his writing style.

kome 3y ago

your comment is involuntarily funny for some reason, not because anything you say, but because of the tone :) you talk of buddhism like a computer scientists would do, HN-style

dhoe 3y ago

It's great that he's able to build such a useful resource despite the lack of seniority then. I guess some elders who try to protect themselves from the winning enthusiasm of youth can be found in many environments.

wanderingmind 3y ago

Oh yes appeal to authority (or seniority). What can go wrong

koonsolo 3y ago

> He would get roundly mocked in subtle ways by senior Buddhist monks I only know a bit about buddhism, but mocking people doesn't sound like 'senior' behaviour to me. Mocking people is very immature. I cannot imagine that someone like Thich Nhat Hanh would mock anyone.

FollowingTheDao 3y ago
[flagged]
- koonsolo 3y ago
  Nice excuse for behaving like a jerk. "I was just testing you"
amadeuspagel 3y ago
Aren't zen parables often about the master mocking the student?
- koonsolo 3y ago
  Can you give an example?

esbeeb 3y ago

For those interested in an answer to the great question "What does 'authority' mean in a Buddhist context?" After about 15 hours of work, I've posted a 1.5hr video with many slides answering it: https://bhikkhu.ca/buddhism/video/2023/06/01/Dhamma_Talk_113.html https://bhikkhu.ca/buddhism/video/2023/06/01/Dhamma_Talk_113...

ArturoVM 3y ago

With respect, Bhante, it is not fitting of a monk to criticize another monk in this way in public. I do not know venerable Khemarato, nor his teachings, but I would humbly suggest that if you’re concerned about people being misled in the Dhamma by that website, it’s better to focus on the content.