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The idea that there are "two sides" is a contrived fallacy. I'm not on anyone's "side". I believe in absolute, unfettered free speech for adults and that ever

The idea that there are "two sides" is a contrived fallacy. I'm not on anyone's "side". I believe in absolute, unfettered free speech for adults and that every parent has an absolute right to decide what their own children are exposed to.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> idea that there are "two sides" is a contrived fallacy Policy-wise, and even in respect of Americans' views, agree. In terms of politics, it's as real as it's contrived. The messaging, debate and legislation is done in a two-sided way, particularly in Florida, where national attention has paramagnetised even school boards. > absolute, unfettered free speech for adults and that every parent has an absolute right to decide what their own children are exposed to This is fair. There are logistical issues with letting parents go à la carte on public education. But that's solvable. I don't see banning books from libraries statewide helping parents "decide what their own children are exposed to." The brush is too broad, and it's one group of parents making decisions for others' kids. (And to preëmpt accusations of hypocrisy, I think it's equally ridiculous when "progressive" elements strike classics for all because somebody might get offended.)
p0pcult 3y ago
Right, so those parents should take it up with their kids, rather than prevent mine from access.
- StanislavPetrov 3y ago
  Either that, or we could reorganize public schools to get back on track as to what their purpose actually is. I don't want crazy religious idea being taught, I don't want people's opinions about how there are 57 genders being taught and I don't want a teacher or a school district trying to instill their chosen value system on my child. I want them to learn how to read. I want them to learn how to write. I want them to learn how to add and subtract. Frankly, considering how miserably school systems are failing to teach kids basic literacy, they should be embarrassed to even discuss their cultural, religious and/or political agenda (even when they insist that their agenda isn't cultural, religious and/or political). When I was in school ~40 years ago, with 3 or 4 exceptions out of a class of ~100, every child could read, write and do math at or near grade level. I didn't know a single thing about the personal lives of any of my teachers, whether they were married, had kids, and certainly not what their sexual orientation was. It didn't matter - because they were there to teach academic subjects! Nor did any of my teachers know (or concern themselves with) my personal life, my sexual orientation or anything else aside from my academic performance in the subject they were teaching. There are a lot of reasonable, normal people who just want schools to become centers of academic learning again instead of another battleground in the cultural war.
  - vel0city 3y ago
    At the same time you can agree the library having a few books where the protagonist has two mom's or two dad's isn't reducing the literacy rate of the school, right? I'm still trying to square your "every parent has an absolute right to decide what their own children are exposed to" with parents who feel the round Earth is a lie.
    - StanislavPetrov 3y ago
      >At the same time you can agree the library having a few books where the protagonist has two mom's or two dad's isn't reducing the literacy rate of the school, right? I'm arguing that the literacy rate in the average school is currently so low in the United States that many students are unable to read at all. I'm arguing that anyone who is more concerned with the number of gender diverse library books than the number of students who are unable to read and write is part of the problem.
      - vel0city 3y ago
        From most measures I can find, reading and math ability was higher pre-COVID than 40 years ago at US public schools. Maybe your experience with only 3% below grade level was 1) not an accurate measure given you were an elementary school student at the time and 2) just a single school out of literally many thousands in the US. I don't know about you, but my recollection of my elementary days sure isn't accurate enough to base an unbiased recollection of an entire nation of public schooling. I barely remember my grades, much less my classmates, much less the classmates the next classroom over or the next school over or the next district over or the next state over. At my ultra prestigious school 60 years ago all seven members of my class could read and write at college level by third grade. Schools are so terrible compared to yesterday. I'm still waiting to hear about what to do when a parent says the round Earth is against their beliefs and they have the right for their child to never be exposed to such absurd, extreme, and unnatural ideology. It seems pretty core to your idea that "every parent has an absolute right to decide what their own children are exposed to."
        3y ago
vel0city 3y ago
So if a parent doesn't want their kid to know about gravity, should it just be no longer taught in schools? What if a parent believes long division is a satanic ritual, should they just skip arithmetic? What if my child is in the class with a flat earther parent?

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> idea that there are "two sides" is a contrived fallacy Policy-wise, and even in respect of Americans' views, agree. In terms of politics, it's as real as it's contrived. The messaging, debate and legislation is done in a two-sided way, particularly in Florida, where national attention has paramagnetised even school boards. > absolute, unfettered free speech for adults and that every parent has an absolute right to decide what their own children are exposed to This is fair. There are logistical issues with letting parents go à la carte on public education. But that's solvable. I don't see banning books from libraries statewide helping parents "decide what their own children are exposed to." The brush is too broad, and it's one group of parents making decisions for others' kids. (And to preëmpt accusations of hypocrisy, I think it's equally ridiculous when "progressive" elements strike classics for all because somebody might get offended.)

p0pcult 3y ago

Right, so those parents should take it up with their kids, rather than prevent mine from access.

StanislavPetrov 3y ago
Either that, or we could reorganize public schools to get back on track as to what their purpose actually is. I don't want crazy religious idea being taught, I don't want people's opinions about how there are 57 genders being taught and I don't want a teacher or a school district trying to instill their chosen value system on my child. I want them to learn how to read. I want them to learn how to write. I want them to learn how to add and subtract. Frankly, considering how miserably school systems are failing to teach kids basic literacy, they should be embarrassed to even discuss their cultural, religious and/or political agenda (even when they insist that their agenda isn't cultural, religious and/or political). When I was in school ~40 years ago, with 3 or 4 exceptions out of a class of ~100, every child could read, write and do math at or near grade level. I didn't know a single thing about the personal lives of any of my teachers, whether they were married, had kids, and certainly not what their sexual orientation was. It didn't matter - because they were there to teach academic subjects! Nor did any of my teachers know (or concern themselves with) my personal life, my sexual orientation or anything else aside from my academic performance in the subject they were teaching. There are a lot of reasonable, normal people who just want schools to become centers of academic learning again instead of another battleground in the cultural war.
- vel0city 3y ago
  At the same time you can agree the library having a few books where the protagonist has two mom's or two dad's isn't reducing the literacy rate of the school, right? I'm still trying to square your "every parent has an absolute right to decide what their own children are exposed to" with parents who feel the round Earth is a lie.
  - StanislavPetrov 3y ago
    >At the same time you can agree the library having a few books where the protagonist has two mom's or two dad's isn't reducing the literacy rate of the school, right? I'm arguing that the literacy rate in the average school is currently so low in the United States that many students are unable to read at all. I'm arguing that anyone who is more concerned with the number of gender diverse library books than the number of students who are unable to read and write is part of the problem.
    - vel0city 3y ago
      From most measures I can find, reading and math ability was higher pre-COVID than 40 years ago at US public schools. Maybe your experience with only 3% below grade level was 1) not an accurate measure given you were an elementary school student at the time and 2) just a single school out of literally many thousands in the US. I don't know about you, but my recollection of my elementary days sure isn't accurate enough to base an unbiased recollection of an entire nation of public schooling. I barely remember my grades, much less my classmates, much less the classmates the next classroom over or the next school over or the next district over or the next state over. At my ultra prestigious school 60 years ago all seven members of my class could read and write at college level by third grade. Schools are so terrible compared to yesterday. I'm still waiting to hear about what to do when a parent says the round Earth is against their beliefs and they have the right for their child to never be exposed to such absurd, extreme, and unnatural ideology. It seems pretty core to your idea that "every parent has an absolute right to decide what their own children are exposed to."
      - 3y ago

vel0city 3y ago

So if a parent doesn't want their kid to know about gravity, should it just be no longer taught in schools? What if a parent believes long division is a satanic ritual, should they just skip arithmetic? What if my child is in the class with a flat earther parent?