7 ms·

To be honest, this more highlights how far out of step tech salaries are with...well everyone else.

by noobermin 3y ago

kortilla 3y ago
Tall poppy syndrome
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
t8sr 3y ago
A bus driver in San Francisco makes about 80k on average, ranging up to about 150k AFAIK. The higher end is more than a senior engineer makes at Wikimedia in California. It maybe highlights that salaries in the US are higher than in much of the rest of the world, but I don't think that's Wikimedia's fault.
- toadi 3y ago
  Maybe US is out of whack a bit with salaries. As software engineer I never made 80k in Europe. I made more when I was freelance engineer. Now I live in Asia only the very senior people will make like around 100k. I have had several leadership roles still not make as much money as a SWE in America. Now I bought land and build a nice house on it, with a big garden, pool and big garage for my motorcycles. All out of my own pocket without going into debt. Think in the end it is not the size of the paycheck that matters. But quality of life is calculated with cost of living and your paycheck.
  - AlchemistCamp 3y ago
    Which part of Asia?
- akolbe 3y ago
  Relatively few Wikimedia staff are in San Francisco. Nearly half are outside the United States: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2023-2024/Foundation_Details#Compensation_Principles https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_... As for the other side of the equation, revenue, most of that is from readers' donations. And most of that comes from North America, Europe, Australia and East Asia. But the Foundation also shows its fundraising messages and sends its fundraising emails begging readers to chip in in places like India, Brazil and South Africa: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/2021-22_Report https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/2021-22_Report
  - t8sr 3y ago
    And in those markets I'm sure they're paid less. The most recent salary report at levels.fyi is about 120k in LA, which is as expensive as SF. They're paying in California less than Spotify is paying in Germany. And I'm not sure what you're saying - should they only ask for donations in the US? I mean, they could, probably, but why is it a problem that people in poorer countries also donate, proportionally I assume much less?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - zztop44 3y ago
    There are many wealthy/high income people in India, Brazil and South Africa. Proportionally fewer, but still many.
crazygringo 3y ago
You seem to be implying there's something "wrong" with it. But tech salaries are just based on supply and demand. If there were more good coders in supply, salaries would go down. So what exactly does "out of step" mean? Everybody's free to try to learn how to code and get those salaries. And so it's not clear what Wikimedia is doing wrong with salaries, if it's paying what's required to get programmers of the needed ability.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- fomine3 3y ago
  "Demand" is insanely rich in SV thanks to VCs
- zacmps 3y ago
  IMO there's absolutely something wrong with it, while millions of people don't have access to food or clean water. Supply & demand is an explanation, not an excuse, and it is a problem that can be fixed (if there's political will).
  - crazygringo 3y ago
    Well yes, we tried once "fixing" it with communism, which simply dictated values for things like salaries and forcibly assigned jobs. And communist economies fell apart because of the horrific inefficiencies and inflexibilities. If you want to fix it, I'd ask you this: suppose there are 20 million people who know how to code worldwide. But that if coders were paid the same as bus drivers, there would be 100 million coding positions available worldwide. How do you decide which one-fifth of companies get coders, and which four-fifths go without? Currently we allocate the fifth to the companies who want to pay the most*, because we've decided that's where they're most helpful in general, because those are the companies building the most potentially profitable products that provide the most economic efficiency (lower prices and/or higher value for consumers). And this is why coders are paid more than bus drivers. So what's the alternative allocation you're suggesting? To achieve what alternative goal? Because it's not helpful to say "it is a problem that can be fixed" if you don't also provide the fix. ---- * There can also be non-monetary factors (nice office environment, purposeful mission, good vibe with team) but they can be converted into estimated monetary values for purposes of comparison -- it doesn't change the argument
grumple 3y ago
If a company is making 1 million per employee, why shouldn't the employee get a substantial part of that? I was personally responsible for easily 2 million / year in income at my previous job (and possibly just as much or more at my current job).
- nly 3y ago
  I'm working a project solo for my employer that is worth $2-3M/mo. I make like 0.5% of that before tax.
- fatherzine 3y ago
  I have a hard time tracking income of a software product to specific employee contribution, unless it's a solo enterprise, which is rare and fraught with its own issues. Who's responsible for a piece of income? The original software author? The maintenance SWE? The SRE? The PM that identified the market opportunity? The exec that signed off the funds for the whole thing?
eftychis 3y ago
Disagree. If you are as an engineer make 10s-100s of millions or billions in some cases, you are worth every penny. Also the good engineers when they feel slighted go out and start a company relatively easily competing or changing the environment. The last fact is why FAANG pays a lot -- to stop people from starting companies.
RhodesianHunter 3y ago
I would argue that's a problem with wages everywhere else being too low, rather than tech salaries being too high. Tech people just get advantages due to supply and demand that normal labor used to get from their unions and reasonable representation in Congress.

To be honest, this more highlights how far out of step tech salaries are with...well everyone else.

kortilla 3y ago

Tall poppy syndrome

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

t8sr 3y ago

A bus driver in San Francisco makes about 80k on average, ranging up to about 150k AFAIK. The higher end is more than a senior engineer makes at Wikimedia in California. It maybe highlights that salaries in the US are higher than in much of the rest of the world, but I don't think that's Wikimedia's fault.

toadi 3y ago
Maybe US is out of whack a bit with salaries. As software engineer I never made 80k in Europe. I made more when I was freelance engineer. Now I live in Asia only the very senior people will make like around 100k. I have had several leadership roles still not make as much money as a SWE in America. Now I bought land and build a nice house on it, with a big garden, pool and big garage for my motorcycles. All out of my own pocket without going into debt. Think in the end it is not the size of the paycheck that matters. But quality of life is calculated with cost of living and your paycheck.
- AlchemistCamp 3y ago
  Which part of Asia?
akolbe 3y ago
Relatively few Wikimedia staff are in San Francisco. Nearly half are outside the United States: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2023-2024/Foundation_Details#Compensation_Principles https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_... As for the other side of the equation, revenue, most of that is from readers' donations. And most of that comes from North America, Europe, Australia and East Asia. But the Foundation also shows its fundraising messages and sends its fundraising emails begging readers to chip in in places like India, Brazil and South Africa: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/2021-22_Report https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/2021-22_Report
- t8sr 3y ago
  And in those markets I'm sure they're paid less. The most recent salary report at levels.fyi is about 120k in LA, which is as expensive as SF. They're paying in California less than Spotify is paying in Germany. And I'm not sure what you're saying - should they only ask for donations in the US? I mean, they could, probably, but why is it a problem that people in poorer countries also donate, proportionally I assume much less?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- zztop44 3y ago
  There are many wealthy/high income people in India, Brazil and South Africa. Proportionally fewer, but still many.

crazygringo 3y ago

You seem to be implying there's something "wrong" with it. But tech salaries are just based on supply and demand. If there were more good coders in supply, salaries would go down. So what exactly does "out of step" mean? Everybody's free to try to learn how to code and get those salaries. And so it's not clear what Wikimedia is doing wrong with salaries, if it's paying what's required to get programmers of the needed ability.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
fomine3 3y ago
"Demand" is insanely rich in SV thanks to VCs
zacmps 3y ago
IMO there's absolutely something wrong with it, while millions of people don't have access to food or clean water. Supply & demand is an explanation, not an excuse, and it is a problem that can be fixed (if there's political will).
- crazygringo 3y ago
  Well yes, we tried once "fixing" it with communism, which simply dictated values for things like salaries and forcibly assigned jobs. And communist economies fell apart because of the horrific inefficiencies and inflexibilities. If you want to fix it, I'd ask you this: suppose there are 20 million people who know how to code worldwide. But that if coders were paid the same as bus drivers, there would be 100 million coding positions available worldwide. How do you decide which one-fifth of companies get coders, and which four-fifths go without? Currently we allocate the fifth to the companies who want to pay the most*, because we've decided that's where they're most helpful in general, because those are the companies building the most potentially profitable products that provide the most economic efficiency (lower prices and/or higher value for consumers). And this is why coders are paid more than bus drivers. So what's the alternative allocation you're suggesting? To achieve what alternative goal? Because it's not helpful to say "it is a problem that can be fixed" if you don't also provide the fix. ---- * There can also be non-monetary factors (nice office environment, purposeful mission, good vibe with team) but they can be converted into estimated monetary values for purposes of comparison -- it doesn't change the argument

grumple 3y ago

If a company is making 1 million per employee, why shouldn't the employee get a substantial part of that? I was personally responsible for easily 2 million / year in income at my previous job (and possibly just as much or more at my current job).

nly 3y ago
I'm working a project solo for my employer that is worth $2-3M/mo. I make like 0.5% of that before tax.
fatherzine 3y ago
I have a hard time tracking income of a software product to specific employee contribution, unless it's a solo enterprise, which is rare and fraught with its own issues. Who's responsible for a piece of income? The original software author? The maintenance SWE? The SRE? The PM that identified the market opportunity? The exec that signed off the funds for the whole thing?

eftychis 3y ago

Disagree. If you are as an engineer make 10s-100s of millions or billions in some cases, you are worth every penny. Also the good engineers when they feel slighted go out and start a company relatively easily competing or changing the environment. The last fact is why FAANG pays a lot -- to stop people from starting companies.

RhodesianHunter 3y ago

I would argue that's a problem with wages everywhere else being too low, rather than tech salaries being too high. Tech people just get advantages due to supply and demand that normal labor used to get from their unions and reasonable representation in Congress.