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Those who deliberately blur the line between "book banning" and "setting the curriculum in schools" are dishonest (at best). Clearly, everyone who believes in

Those who deliberately blur the line between "book banning" and "setting the curriculum in schools" are dishonest (at best). Clearly, everyone who believes in free speech believes that all adults should have access to any and all books, pamphlets and printed material, no matter how "obscene" or objectionable that material is. However, those who suggest that any and all printed material, no matter how "obscene" or objectionable, should be allowed in classrooms (let alone into the classrooms of young children) are extremists who should not be taken seriously. Even worse, the notion that parents should not have any input about what "obscene" or objectionable material their children are exposed to in public school is profoundly authoritarian.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> the line between "book banning" and "setting the curriculum in schools" Both sides do this. Parents should have a direct say in the books teachers assign their students. One group of parents doesn't get to decide which books are and aren't allowed in a library.
- StanislavPetrov 3y ago
  The idea that there are "two sides" is a contrived fallacy. I'm not on anyone's "side". I believe in absolute, unfettered free speech for adults and that every parent has an absolute right to decide what their own children are exposed to.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > idea that there are "two sides" is a contrived fallacy Policy-wise, and even in respect of Americans' views, agree. In terms of politics, it's as real as it's contrived. The messaging, debate and legislation is done in a two-sided way, particularly in Florida, where national attention has paramagnetised even school boards. > absolute, unfettered free speech for adults and that every parent has an absolute right to decide what their own children are exposed to This is fair. There are logistical issues with letting parents go à la carte on public education. But that's solvable. I don't see banning books from libraries statewide helping parents "decide what their own children are exposed to." The brush is too broad, and it's one group of parents making decisions for others' kids. (And to preëmpt accusations of hypocrisy, I think it's equally ridiculous when "progressive" elements strike classics for all because somebody might get offended.)
  - p0pcult 3y ago
    Right, so those parents should take it up with their kids, rather than prevent mine from access.
    - StanislavPetrov 3y ago
      Either that, or we could reorganize public schools to get back on track as to what their purpose actually is. I don't want crazy religious idea being taught, I don't want people's opinions about how there are 57 genders being taught and I don't want a teacher or a school district trying to instill their chosen value system on my child. I want them to learn how to read. I want them to learn how to write. I want them to learn how to add and subtract. Frankly, considering how miserably school systems are failing to teach kids basic literacy, they should be embarrassed to even discuss their cultural, religious and/or political agenda (even when they insist that their agenda isn't cultural, religious and/or political). When I was in school ~40 years ago, with 3 or 4 exceptions out of a class of ~100, every child could read, write and do math at or near grade level. I didn't know a single thing about the personal lives of any of my teachers, whether they were married, had kids, and certainly not what their sexual orientation was. It didn't matter - because they were there to teach academic subjects! Nor did any of my teachers know (or concern themselves with) my personal life, my sexual orientation or anything else aside from my academic performance in the subject they were teaching. There are a lot of reasonable, normal people who just want schools to become centers of academic learning again instead of another battleground in the cultural war.
      - vel0city 3y ago
        At the same time you can agree the library having a few books where the protagonist has two mom's or two dad's isn't reducing the literacy rate of the school, right? I'm still trying to square your "every parent has an absolute right to decide what their own children are exposed to" with parents who feel the round Earth is a lie.
        StanislavPetrov 3y ago
        >At the same time you can agree the library having a few books where the protagonist has two mom's or two dad's isn't reducing the literacy rate of the school, right? I'm arguing that the literacy rate in the average school is currently so low in the United States that many students are unable to read at all. I'm arguing that anyone who is more concerned with the number of gender diverse library books than the number of students who are unable to read and write is part of the problem.
  - vel0city 3y ago
    So if a parent doesn't want their kid to know about gravity, should it just be no longer taught in schools? What if a parent believes long division is a satanic ritual, should they just skip arithmetic? What if my child is in the class with a flat earther parent?
vel0city 3y ago
> Those who deliberately blur the line between "book banning" and "setting the curriculum in schools" are dishonest (at best). From what I understand some schools have pulled lots of books from libraries overall. There were tons of books I had access to that weren't directly a part of the curriculum, and in fact parts of the curriculum specifically gave my classmates and I the opportunity to explore different topics and books which weren't a pre-chosen part of the curriculum.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> the line between "book banning" and "setting the curriculum in schools" Both sides do this. Parents should have a direct say in the books teachers assign their students. One group of parents doesn't get to decide which books are and aren't allowed in a library.

StanislavPetrov 3y ago
The idea that there are "two sides" is a contrived fallacy. I'm not on anyone's "side". I believe in absolute, unfettered free speech for adults and that every parent has an absolute right to decide what their own children are exposed to.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > idea that there are "two sides" is a contrived fallacy Policy-wise, and even in respect of Americans' views, agree. In terms of politics, it's as real as it's contrived. The messaging, debate and legislation is done in a two-sided way, particularly in Florida, where national attention has paramagnetised even school boards. > absolute, unfettered free speech for adults and that every parent has an absolute right to decide what their own children are exposed to This is fair. There are logistical issues with letting parents go à la carte on public education. But that's solvable. I don't see banning books from libraries statewide helping parents "decide what their own children are exposed to." The brush is too broad, and it's one group of parents making decisions for others' kids. (And to preëmpt accusations of hypocrisy, I think it's equally ridiculous when "progressive" elements strike classics for all because somebody might get offended.)
- p0pcult 3y ago
  Right, so those parents should take it up with their kids, rather than prevent mine from access.
  - StanislavPetrov 3y ago
    Either that, or we could reorganize public schools to get back on track as to what their purpose actually is. I don't want crazy religious idea being taught, I don't want people's opinions about how there are 57 genders being taught and I don't want a teacher or a school district trying to instill their chosen value system on my child. I want them to learn how to read. I want them to learn how to write. I want them to learn how to add and subtract. Frankly, considering how miserably school systems are failing to teach kids basic literacy, they should be embarrassed to even discuss their cultural, religious and/or political agenda (even when they insist that their agenda isn't cultural, religious and/or political). When I was in school ~40 years ago, with 3 or 4 exceptions out of a class of ~100, every child could read, write and do math at or near grade level. I didn't know a single thing about the personal lives of any of my teachers, whether they were married, had kids, and certainly not what their sexual orientation was. It didn't matter - because they were there to teach academic subjects! Nor did any of my teachers know (or concern themselves with) my personal life, my sexual orientation or anything else aside from my academic performance in the subject they were teaching. There are a lot of reasonable, normal people who just want schools to become centers of academic learning again instead of another battleground in the cultural war.
    - vel0city 3y ago
      At the same time you can agree the library having a few books where the protagonist has two mom's or two dad's isn't reducing the literacy rate of the school, right? I'm still trying to square your "every parent has an absolute right to decide what their own children are exposed to" with parents who feel the round Earth is a lie.
      - StanislavPetrov 3y ago
        >At the same time you can agree the library having a few books where the protagonist has two mom's or two dad's isn't reducing the literacy rate of the school, right? I'm arguing that the literacy rate in the average school is currently so low in the United States that many students are unable to read at all. I'm arguing that anyone who is more concerned with the number of gender diverse library books than the number of students who are unable to read and write is part of the problem.
- vel0city 3y ago
  So if a parent doesn't want their kid to know about gravity, should it just be no longer taught in schools? What if a parent believes long division is a satanic ritual, should they just skip arithmetic? What if my child is in the class with a flat earther parent?

vel0city 3y ago

> Those who deliberately blur the line between "book banning" and "setting the curriculum in schools" are dishonest (at best). From what I understand some schools have pulled lots of books from libraries overall. There were tons of books I had access to that weren't directly a part of the curriculum, and in fact parts of the curriculum specifically gave my classmates and I the opportunity to explore different topics and books which weren't a pre-chosen part of the curriculum.