11 ms·

Banning from where? If you are talking about what is happening around the country at school board meanings then you are framing things pretty poorly.

ok_dad 3y ago
What do you mean? It’s been in the news constantly about Floridas don’t say gay laws and stuff. You folks will reach as far as possible to make book bans seem reasonable.
- the_doctah 3y ago
  In elementary school, book bans are reasonable. You forgot to mention the part about the young children.
  - plokiju 3y ago
    And high school: https://www.edweek.org/policy-politics/florida-just-expanded-the-dont-say-gay-law-heres-what-you-need-to-know/2023/04 https://www.edweek.org/policy-politics/florida-just-expanded...
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> Banning from where? I used to buy the incrementalist argument that these books are inappropriate for grade schoolers. But then the law, predictably, was extended to high school and shows no sign of stopping. Banning books has never been looked back on as a sign of a strong society. School is meant to be about resolving conflicting ideas. Pretending kids aren't getting 10x worse on the internet, or from their friends with an internet-connected device, just separates society into an imbecilic underclass and ones who can afford a more interrogative education.
- ok_dad 3y ago
  Even at that level, why ban a book? Set them in a special section that requires parents to accompany the kids to check out the books. I remember my mom coming with me to the library as a kid to help me find books.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - newZWhoDis 3y ago
    >Even at that level, why ban a book? Huge chunks of western countries have banned books (with criminal penalties) for almost a hundred years now.
- newZWhoDis 3y ago
  >Banning books has never been looked back on as a sign of a strong society. This clearly isn’t true in and of itself. For example, you’d never write these kinds of comments in support of inclusion of certain Holocaust-adjacent material, which is actively banned in many western countries. Countries that, I might add, you would probably consider as doing well today? You support book bans, you just don’t support banning these books. Please be honest and transparent about this, it’s much more respectable.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - ok_dad 3y ago
    > For example, you’d never write these kinds of comments in support of inclusion of certain Holocaust-adjacent material, which is actively banned in many western countries. Countries that, I might add, you would probably consider as doing well today? Fucking "Mein Kampf" is available, today, in several thousand libraries and bookstores around the USA and I wouldn't have it any other way. Some of us actually believe in the right for information to be free. I served in the military to fight (ostensibly) for freedom like this.
    - newZWhoDis 3y ago
      I agree with you. I was clearly referencing how books that claim the holocaust didn’t happen (or was misrepresented) are illegal in huge swaths of the western world. I’m not endorsing those viewpoints, merely showing how huge numbers of westerners actually are ok with book bans as long as it’s the right topic.
- StanislavPetrov 3y ago
  Those who deliberately blur the line between "book banning" and "setting the curriculum in schools" are dishonest (at best). Clearly, everyone who believes in free speech believes that all adults should have access to any and all books, pamphlets and printed material, no matter how "obscene" or objectionable that material is. However, those who suggest that any and all printed material, no matter how "obscene" or objectionable, should be allowed in classrooms (let alone into the classrooms of young children) are extremists who should not be taken seriously. Even worse, the notion that parents should not have any input about what "obscene" or objectionable material their children are exposed to in public school is profoundly authoritarian.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > the line between "book banning" and "setting the curriculum in schools" Both sides do this. Parents should have a direct say in the books teachers assign their students. One group of parents doesn't get to decide which books are and aren't allowed in a library.
    - StanislavPetrov 3y ago
      The idea that there are "two sides" is a contrived fallacy. I'm not on anyone's "side". I believe in absolute, unfettered free speech for adults and that every parent has an absolute right to decide what their own children are exposed to.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > idea that there are "two sides" is a contrived fallacy Policy-wise, and even in respect of Americans' views, agree. In terms of politics, it's as real as it's contrived. The messaging, debate and legislation is done in a two-sided way, particularly in Florida, where national attention has paramagnetised even school boards. > absolute, unfettered free speech for adults and that every parent has an absolute right to decide what their own children are exposed to This is fair. There are logistical issues with letting parents go à la carte on public education. But that's solvable. I don't see banning books from libraries statewide helping parents "decide what their own children are exposed to." The brush is too broad, and it's one group of parents making decisions for others' kids. (And to preëmpt accusations of hypocrisy, I think it's equally ridiculous when "progressive" elements strike classics for all because somebody might get offended.)

ok_dad 3y ago

What do you mean? It’s been in the news constantly about Floridas don’t say gay laws and stuff. You folks will reach as far as possible to make book bans seem reasonable.

the_doctah 3y ago
In elementary school, book bans are reasonable. You forgot to mention the part about the young children.
- plokiju 3y ago
  And high school: https://www.edweek.org/policy-politics/florida-just-expanded-the-dont-say-gay-law-heres-what-you-need-to-know/2023/04 https://www.edweek.org/policy-politics/florida-just-expanded...

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> Banning from where? I used to buy the incrementalist argument that these books are inappropriate for grade schoolers. But then the law, predictably, was extended to high school and shows no sign of stopping. Banning books has never been looked back on as a sign of a strong society. School is meant to be about resolving conflicting ideas. Pretending kids aren't getting 10x worse on the internet, or from their friends with an internet-connected device, just separates society into an imbecilic underclass and ones who can afford a more interrogative education.

ok_dad 3y ago
Even at that level, why ban a book? Set them in a special section that requires parents to accompany the kids to check out the books. I remember my mom coming with me to the library as a kid to help me find books.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- newZWhoDis 3y ago
  >Even at that level, why ban a book? Huge chunks of western countries have banned books (with criminal penalties) for almost a hundred years now.
newZWhoDis 3y ago
>Banning books has never been looked back on as a sign of a strong society. This clearly isn’t true in and of itself. For example, you’d never write these kinds of comments in support of inclusion of certain Holocaust-adjacent material, which is actively banned in many western countries. Countries that, I might add, you would probably consider as doing well today? You support book bans, you just don’t support banning these books. Please be honest and transparent about this, it’s much more respectable.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- ok_dad 3y ago
  > For example, you’d never write these kinds of comments in support of inclusion of certain Holocaust-adjacent material, which is actively banned in many western countries. Countries that, I might add, you would probably consider as doing well today? Fucking "Mein Kampf" is available, today, in several thousand libraries and bookstores around the USA and I wouldn't have it any other way. Some of us actually believe in the right for information to be free. I served in the military to fight (ostensibly) for freedom like this.
  - newZWhoDis 3y ago
    I agree with you. I was clearly referencing how books that claim the holocaust didn’t happen (or was misrepresented) are illegal in huge swaths of the western world. I’m not endorsing those viewpoints, merely showing how huge numbers of westerners actually are ok with book bans as long as it’s the right topic.
StanislavPetrov 3y ago
Those who deliberately blur the line between "book banning" and "setting the curriculum in schools" are dishonest (at best). Clearly, everyone who believes in free speech believes that all adults should have access to any and all books, pamphlets and printed material, no matter how "obscene" or objectionable that material is. However, those who suggest that any and all printed material, no matter how "obscene" or objectionable, should be allowed in classrooms (let alone into the classrooms of young children) are extremists who should not be taken seriously. Even worse, the notion that parents should not have any input about what "obscene" or objectionable material their children are exposed to in public school is profoundly authoritarian.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > the line between "book banning" and "setting the curriculum in schools" Both sides do this. Parents should have a direct say in the books teachers assign their students. One group of parents doesn't get to decide which books are and aren't allowed in a library.
  - StanislavPetrov 3y ago
    The idea that there are "two sides" is a contrived fallacy. I'm not on anyone's "side". I believe in absolute, unfettered free speech for adults and that every parent has an absolute right to decide what their own children are exposed to.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > idea that there are "two sides" is a contrived fallacy Policy-wise, and even in respect of Americans' views, agree. In terms of politics, it's as real as it's contrived. The messaging, debate and legislation is done in a two-sided way, particularly in Florida, where national attention has paramagnetised even school boards. > absolute, unfettered free speech for adults and that every parent has an absolute right to decide what their own children are exposed to This is fair. There are logistical issues with letting parents go à la carte on public education. But that's solvable. I don't see banning books from libraries statewide helping parents "decide what their own children are exposed to." The brush is too broad, and it's one group of parents making decisions for others' kids. (And to preëmpt accusations of hypocrisy, I think it's equally ridiculous when "progressive" elements strike classics for all because somebody might get offended.)