4 ms·

I love when people say the USA or UK pushed this war. Russia tried to perform a decapitation attack on Ukraine and failed. There was no reasonable cause for thi

by padjo 3y ago

I love when people say the USA or UK pushed this war. Russia tried to perform a decapitation attack on Ukraine and failed. There was no reasonable cause for this, they just thought they could get away with it and keep Ukraine as a vassal state rather than let it turn west like the Baltics etc. Curious, do you think Russia is to blame at all for violating the terms of the Budapest Memorandum?

wsc981 3y ago
I’d think you’d be naive to think Ukraine would not become a vassal state to the US if Ukraine can somehow manage to win this war. Because as far as I know US made huge loans to the Ukraine. Billions and billions of dollars. If Ukraine could manage to win the war, US will want payback for the loans. And I think payback will be in the form of resources. Perhaps US based multinationals like Monsanto taking over farmland or other companies exploiting resources. As I understand Ukraine is a very resource rich country and US pretty much only bothers to fight in countries with plenty resources. At this point US is still exporting oil from Syria. And I should note, the Syrian government doesn’t approve of US invasion in Syria, much like the Ukraine government doesn’t approve the Russian invasion in Ukraine.
- padjo 3y ago
  When did the US invade Syria? How much of it did they annex?
  - wsc981 3y ago
    They control quite a large part of North-East Syria. US has been active in Syria now for many years. I think the numbers of US presence is wrong though, I read there’s about 900 soldiers present right now. https://i.redd.it/f1fa35f2es461.jpg https://i.redd.it/f1fa35f2es461.jpg
ghostwriter 3y ago
> Curious, do you think Russia is to blame at all for violating the terms of the Budapest Memorandum? The Budapest Memorandum was predicated on adherence to all prior agreements Ukraine would never see sovereignty without in the first place [1]. Nobody would just let it go in peace without those prior agreements signed in 1990: >> The Ukrainian SSR ceremoniously proclaims its intention to become a permanently neutral state in the future, which will be out of military blocks and will be committed to three non-nuclear principles: not to accept, not to produce and not to acquire the nuclear weapon. (1990) << [1] https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/en/55-12#Text https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/en/55-12#Text
- padjo 3y ago
  So what military block did Ukraine join prior to Russia annexing its territory?
  - ghostwriter 3y ago
    Where did I say that annexation was predicated on the fact of joining rather than an intent to join? Next, what was sovereignty of Ukraine predicated on in 1990?
    - dragonwriter 3y ago
      > Where did I say that annexation was predicated on the fact of joining rather than an intent to join? Putin had been successful in getting NATO to reject MAPs for Ukraine and Georgia before invading either (just before, in Georgia’s case), and that rejection had caused Ukraine to abandon NATO membership as a goal before Putin launched the war in 2014. Once it was at war with Russia, Ukraine changed its mind again and decided it needed to pursue NATO membership as a goal, for some reason. Putin’s war is literally the reason Ukraine has an intent to join NATO, not a response to that intent.
      - ghostwriter 3y ago
        > Once it was at war with Russia, Ukraine changed its mind again and decided it needed to pursue NATO membership as a goal, for some reason. Your timeline is missing a few important points, let's start with the fact that it never stopped pursuing it since 2003, when it had taken part in the invasion of Iraq with their 5th and 6th mechanized brigades [1][2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_Mechanized_Brigade_(Ukraine) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_Mechanized_Brigade_(Ukrain... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_Mechanized_Brigade_(Ukraine) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_Mechanized_Brigade_(Ukrain...
        dragonwriter 3y ago
        > let's start with the fact that it never stopped pursuing it since 2003 That's not a fact. The Yanukovych government obviously didn't pursue NATO membership, and even the post-Maidan government expressly declared it a non-goal prior to the invasion that occurred shortly after that government came to power, reversing course only after the invasion. > when it had taken part in the invasion of Iraq 2003 was before 2008, when Putin succeeded in getting NATO to reject the Georgia and Ukraine MAPs, and it was this caving to Putin by NATO which is why even when a pro-Western government came to power in 2014 after Yanukovych, it didn’t see pursuing NATO as a fruitful course. It took the war to change their mind. The war created the intent, it didn’t react to it.

by padjo 3y ago

wsc981 3y ago

I’d think you’d be naive to think Ukraine would not become a vassal state to the US if Ukraine can somehow manage to win this war. Because as far as I know US made huge loans to the Ukraine. Billions and billions of dollars. If Ukraine could manage to win the war, US will want payback for the loans. And I think payback will be in the form of resources. Perhaps US based multinationals like Monsanto taking over farmland or other companies exploiting resources. As I understand Ukraine is a very resource rich country and US pretty much only bothers to fight in countries with plenty resources. At this point US is still exporting oil from Syria. And I should note, the Syrian government doesn’t approve of US invasion in Syria, much like the Ukraine government doesn’t approve the Russian invasion in Ukraine.

padjo 3y ago
When did the US invade Syria? How much of it did they annex?
- wsc981 3y ago
  They control quite a large part of North-East Syria. US has been active in Syria now for many years. I think the numbers of US presence is wrong though, I read there’s about 900 soldiers present right now. https://i.redd.it/f1fa35f2es461.jpg https://i.redd.it/f1fa35f2es461.jpg

ghostwriter 3y ago

> Curious, do you think Russia is to blame at all for violating the terms of the Budapest Memorandum? The Budapest Memorandum was predicated on adherence to all prior agreements Ukraine would never see sovereignty without in the first place [1]. Nobody would just let it go in peace without those prior agreements signed in 1990: >> The Ukrainian SSR ceremoniously proclaims its intention to become a permanently neutral state in the future, which will be out of military blocks and will be committed to three non-nuclear principles: not to accept, not to produce and not to acquire the nuclear weapon. (1990) << [1] https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/en/55-12#Text https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/en/55-12#Text

padjo 3y ago
So what military block did Ukraine join prior to Russia annexing its territory?
- ghostwriter 3y ago
  Where did I say that annexation was predicated on the fact of joining rather than an intent to join? Next, what was sovereignty of Ukraine predicated on in 1990?
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > Where did I say that annexation was predicated on the fact of joining rather than an intent to join? Putin had been successful in getting NATO to reject MAPs for Ukraine and Georgia before invading either (just before, in Georgia’s case), and that rejection had caused Ukraine to abandon NATO membership as a goal before Putin launched the war in 2014. Once it was at war with Russia, Ukraine changed its mind again and decided it needed to pursue NATO membership as a goal, for some reason. Putin’s war is literally the reason Ukraine has an intent to join NATO, not a response to that intent.
    - ghostwriter 3y ago
      > Once it was at war with Russia, Ukraine changed its mind again and decided it needed to pursue NATO membership as a goal, for some reason. Your timeline is missing a few important points, let's start with the fact that it never stopped pursuing it since 2003, when it had taken part in the invasion of Iraq with their 5th and 6th mechanized brigades [1][2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_Mechanized_Brigade_(Ukraine) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_Mechanized_Brigade_(Ukrain... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_Mechanized_Brigade_(Ukraine) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_Mechanized_Brigade_(Ukrain...
      - dragonwriter 3y ago
        > let's start with the fact that it never stopped pursuing it since 2003 That's not a fact. The Yanukovych government obviously didn't pursue NATO membership, and even the post-Maidan government expressly declared it a non-goal prior to the invasion that occurred shortly after that government came to power, reversing course only after the invasion. > when it had taken part in the invasion of Iraq 2003 was before 2008, when Putin succeeded in getting NATO to reject the Georgia and Ukraine MAPs, and it was this caving to Putin by NATO which is why even when a pro-Western government came to power in 2014 after Yanukovych, it didn’t see pursuing NATO as a fruitful course. It took the war to change their mind. The war created the intent, it didn’t react to it.