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My guess is that they aren't happy about the day to day, but they've been sold a narrative that NATO's expansion into Ukraine was an existential threat to them.

My guess is that they aren't happy about the day to day, but they've been sold a narrative that NATO's expansion into Ukraine was an existential threat to them. You can look at it like the Battle for Fallujah. It was horrible and bloody - but in the global narrative of eliminating islamic extremists that pose a threat to the west the battle was sort of seen as an unavoidable I'm not trying to make a moral equivalence between the two - just explain how one horrible thing in the context of something bigger might feel inescapable

justrealist 3y ago
Fallujah was never burned to the ground. Fallujah's population never dropped to 0. Apartment blocks were never shelled to the ground. Fallujah has a population of 275,000. Bakhmut will never again have more than a handful of people. It's not the lack of moral equivalence, it's the lack of any equivalent whatsoever.
- atchoo 3y ago
  In Fallujah, the US: - damaged more than half of the residences and destroyed a quarter of them (air strikes) - shot and killed unarmed protestors - used cluster bombs - used white phosphorous - used depleted uranium - left the area with increased cancer, birth defects and infant mortality
vasergen 3y ago
> but they've been sold a narrative that NATO's expansion into Ukraine was an existential threat to them When the war started there were no talking what's so ever about NATO expansion to Ukraine. After the war started Finland joined NATO and it is the longest border between NATO and Russia and nobody from Russia said anything about that.
- runsWphotons 3y ago
  There was plenty of talking about it before the war, you just werent listening to the right channels. No one said anything about Finland joining because the bridges are already burned, it is too late.
  - pjc50 3y ago
    Finland decided to join before they, too, were invaded. They have after all been here before https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization
  - bandyaboot 3y ago
    Can you point us to those channels?
    - ghostwriter 3y ago
      > https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_185000.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_185000.htm >> We reiterate the decision made at the 2008 Bucharest Summit that Ukraine will become a member of the Alliance with the Membership Action Plan (MAP) as an integral part of the process > https://www.dw.com/en/russia-putin-addresses-ukraine-nato-tensions/a-60237389 https://www.dw.com/en/russia-putin-addresses-ukraine-nato-te... > https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/en/55-12#Text https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/en/55-12#Text >> The Ukrainian SSR ceremoniously proclaims its intention to become a permanently neutral state in the future, which will be out of military blocks and will be committed to three non-nuclear principles: not to accept, not to produce and not to acquire the nuclear weapon. (1990)
      - _kbh_ 3y ago
        > > https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/en/55-12#Text https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/en/55-12#Text >> The Ukrainian SSR ceremoniously proclaims its intention to become a permanently neutral state in the future, which will be out of military blocks and will be committed to three non-nuclear principles: not to accept, not to produce and not to acquire the nuclear weapon. (1990) This was superseded by the new constitution that was adopted in 1996 as the Ukrainian SSR no longer exists this document no longer applies. But I’m curious if you are saying that Ukraine is forced to follow this why isn’t Russia forced to follow the Budapest memorandum in which in pledged along with other nuclear powers at the time not to invade or threaten the territorial integrity of Ukraine.
      - 3y ago
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > When the war started there were no talking what's so ever about NATO expansion to Ukraine Ukraine adopted a policy of seeking to join NATO after the current Russo-Ukrainian war began in 2014. Immediately prior to the war it had focussed on seeking to join the EU, but had disclaimed any interest in joining NATO.
lostmsu 3y ago
> islamic extremists that pose a threat to the west What a funny twist. I thought islamic extremists pose treat to non-islamic civilian population, and to a large degree to the moderate islam followers.

justrealist 3y ago

Fallujah was never burned to the ground. Fallujah's population never dropped to 0. Apartment blocks were never shelled to the ground. Fallujah has a population of 275,000. Bakhmut will never again have more than a handful of people. It's not the lack of moral equivalence, it's the lack of any equivalent whatsoever.

atchoo 3y ago
In Fallujah, the US: - damaged more than half of the residences and destroyed a quarter of them (air strikes) - shot and killed unarmed protestors - used cluster bombs - used white phosphorous - used depleted uranium - left the area with increased cancer, birth defects and infant mortality

vasergen 3y ago

> but they've been sold a narrative that NATO's expansion into Ukraine was an existential threat to them When the war started there were no talking what's so ever about NATO expansion to Ukraine. After the war started Finland joined NATO and it is the longest border between NATO and Russia and nobody from Russia said anything about that.

runsWphotons 3y ago
There was plenty of talking about it before the war, you just werent listening to the right channels. No one said anything about Finland joining because the bridges are already burned, it is too late.
- pjc50 3y ago
  Finland decided to join before they, too, were invaded. They have after all been here before https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization
- bandyaboot 3y ago
  Can you point us to those channels?
  - ghostwriter 3y ago
    > https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_185000.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_185000.htm >> We reiterate the decision made at the 2008 Bucharest Summit that Ukraine will become a member of the Alliance with the Membership Action Plan (MAP) as an integral part of the process > https://www.dw.com/en/russia-putin-addresses-ukraine-nato-tensions/a-60237389 https://www.dw.com/en/russia-putin-addresses-ukraine-nato-te... > https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/en/55-12#Text https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/en/55-12#Text >> The Ukrainian SSR ceremoniously proclaims its intention to become a permanently neutral state in the future, which will be out of military blocks and will be committed to three non-nuclear principles: not to accept, not to produce and not to acquire the nuclear weapon. (1990)
    - _kbh_ 3y ago
      > > https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/en/55-12#Text https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/en/55-12#Text >> The Ukrainian SSR ceremoniously proclaims its intention to become a permanently neutral state in the future, which will be out of military blocks and will be committed to three non-nuclear principles: not to accept, not to produce and not to acquire the nuclear weapon. (1990) This was superseded by the new constitution that was adopted in 1996 as the Ukrainian SSR no longer exists this document no longer applies. But I’m curious if you are saying that Ukraine is forced to follow this why isn’t Russia forced to follow the Budapest memorandum in which in pledged along with other nuclear powers at the time not to invade or threaten the territorial integrity of Ukraine.
    - 3y ago
dragonwriter 3y ago
> When the war started there were no talking what's so ever about NATO expansion to Ukraine Ukraine adopted a policy of seeking to join NATO after the current Russo-Ukrainian war began in 2014. Immediately prior to the war it had focussed on seeking to join the EU, but had disclaimed any interest in joining NATO.

lostmsu 3y ago

> islamic extremists that pose a threat to the west What a funny twist. I thought islamic extremists pose treat to non-islamic civilian population, and to a large degree to the moderate islam followers.