3 ms·

ARS has to be one of the worst ways to go, and probably the most unnatural?

pfannkuchen 3y ago
I think it’s probably tied with dying from obesity for being most unnatural.
shadowgovt 3y ago
It's an interesting topic, what would be the most unnatural way to die. At some point, I got in a conversation about what would happen if you drank nothing but heavy water. The short answer is that yes, this would kill you; the differing molecular weight between molecules built with heavy hydrogen and regular hydrogen will eventually add up to disruption of metabolic processes in ways that we haven't even researched. But we haven't researched them because it would cost an absolute fortune to get enough of the stuff to do yourself in. This would be a suicide reserved for billionaires.
- causi 3y ago
  The toxicity of heavy water is not related to its molecular weight, rather to the difference in strength of its hydrogen bonds.
  - shadowgovt 3y ago
    I was under the impression that the difference in mass results in slowing down metabolic processes (mainly because it takes more energy per unit time to move a more massive molecule). I wouldn't expect the hydrogen bond strength to be affected because hydrogen bonds are electromagnetic bonds, and the electromagnetic properties of deuterium and (H1) water are the same (other than the mass-effected ones; heavy hydrogen in an electric field will accelerate more slowly than light hydrogen, but that's because it's more massive, not because it's more weakly coupled to the electric field).
    - causi 3y ago
      Heavy water hydrogen bonds are a couple percent stronger because the molecules themselves are very slightly smaller. Smaller molecules result in a shorter range of vibration at a given temperature, hence less inherent "fighting" of the hydrogen bond.
- ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
  As an aside, it's surprising how "safe" plutonium can be even when it's being injected into your bloodstream https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_radiation_experiments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_radiation_experiments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Stevens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Stevens
- Symmetry 3y ago
  Surely not that much. The LD50 of heavy water is really high at 30% of body weight[1] but it's only about $10,000 per kg. So even the most obese millionaire should be able to kill themselves this way if they really want to. That's part of why thermonuclear weapons have such a disturbingly high "bang for the buck." The enriched uranium or plutonium primary is really expensive. So is the rocket that gets it where it's going. But the lithium deuteride that makes up the fusion fuel is comparatively dirt cheap. [1]https://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0206076.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0206076.pdf
  - jabl 3y ago
    > That's part of why thermonuclear weapons have such a disturbingly high "bang for the buck." The enriched uranium or plutonium primary is really expensive. So is the rocket that gets it where it's going. But the lithium deuteride that makes up the fusion fuel is comparatively dirt cheap. No idea what the cost of enriched U, Pu, or lithium deuteride is, but I'll note that A) current day thermonuclear warheads deliver an estimated 50% of the total output through fission of enriched U (casing) and Pu (primary) B) the lithium in lithium deuteride, as well as the deuterium, need to be enriched, so probably not quite dirt cheap (depends on your definition of dirt cheap I guess)?
- retrac 3y ago
  Heavy water's only about $1000 a litre in bulk. Certainly cheap enough to run experiments on rats and small plants. Such experiments have been done. That's how we know it'll kill you. Its toxicity profile is kind of interesting. In almost all eukaryotes (plants, animals, fungi) low concentrations (1 - 10%) seem to have no obvious effect at all, while around 25% it seems to cause temporary sterility - the gametes seem particularly sensitive. As it approaches 50%, cell reproduction stops and death is rapid. Very few eukaryotes can survive >50% heavy water in their cells. Though a few types of yeast and single-celled plants seem to be able to survive in conditions like many bacteria can - up to 95% or more heavy water. But all kinds of life die at 100% heavy water, as far as I know. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_water#Effect_on_biological_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_water#Effect_on_biologic...
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
tantalor 3y ago
idk about "unnatural", it's basically death by physics. You are killed by the universe. Sounds natural to me. I'd put in the same category as falling from a great height.
- StrangeATractor 3y ago
  > I'd put in the same category as falling from a great height Yeah, onto the surface of the sun.
- michaelcampbell 3y ago
  One way to categorize, I guess. Prior to humans enriching radioactive materials, how many humans died from ARS vs. falling from a great height?
- dmd 3y ago
  What other kind of death is there?
- Cyberdog 3y ago
  Well, if we want to put it that way, all deaths are death by physics, aren't they? Including murder.

I think it’s probably tied with dying from obesity for being most unnatural.

It's an interesting topic, what would be the most unnatural way to die. At some point, I got in a conversation about what would happen if you drank nothing but heavy water. The short answer is that yes, this would kill you; the differing molecular weight between molecules built with heavy hydrogen and regular hydrogen will eventually add up to disruption of metabolic processes in ways that we haven't even researched. But we haven't researched them because it would cost an absolute fortune to get enough of the stuff to do yourself in. This would be a suicide reserved for billionaires.

causi 3y ago
The toxicity of heavy water is not related to its molecular weight, rather to the difference in strength of its hydrogen bonds.
- shadowgovt 3y ago
  I was under the impression that the difference in mass results in slowing down metabolic processes (mainly because it takes more energy per unit time to move a more massive molecule). I wouldn't expect the hydrogen bond strength to be affected because hydrogen bonds are electromagnetic bonds, and the electromagnetic properties of deuterium and (H1) water are the same (other than the mass-effected ones; heavy hydrogen in an electric field will accelerate more slowly than light hydrogen, but that's because it's more massive, not because it's more weakly coupled to the electric field).
  - causi 3y ago
    Heavy water hydrogen bonds are a couple percent stronger because the molecules themselves are very slightly smaller. Smaller molecules result in a shorter range of vibration at a given temperature, hence less inherent "fighting" of the hydrogen bond.
ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
As an aside, it's surprising how "safe" plutonium can be even when it's being injected into your bloodstream https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_radiation_experiments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_radiation_experiments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Stevens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Stevens
Symmetry 3y ago
Surely not that much. The LD50 of heavy water is really high at 30% of body weight[1] but it's only about $10,000 per kg. So even the most obese millionaire should be able to kill themselves this way if they really want to. That's part of why thermonuclear weapons have such a disturbingly high "bang for the buck." The enriched uranium or plutonium primary is really expensive. So is the rocket that gets it where it's going. But the lithium deuteride that makes up the fusion fuel is comparatively dirt cheap. [1]https://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0206076.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0206076.pdf
- jabl 3y ago
  > That's part of why thermonuclear weapons have such a disturbingly high "bang for the buck." The enriched uranium or plutonium primary is really expensive. So is the rocket that gets it where it's going. But the lithium deuteride that makes up the fusion fuel is comparatively dirt cheap. No idea what the cost of enriched U, Pu, or lithium deuteride is, but I'll note that A) current day thermonuclear warheads deliver an estimated 50% of the total output through fission of enriched U (casing) and Pu (primary) B) the lithium in lithium deuteride, as well as the deuterium, need to be enriched, so probably not quite dirt cheap (depends on your definition of dirt cheap I guess)?
retrac 3y ago
Heavy water's only about $1000 a litre in bulk. Certainly cheap enough to run experiments on rats and small plants. Such experiments have been done. That's how we know it'll kill you. Its toxicity profile is kind of interesting. In almost all eukaryotes (plants, animals, fungi) low concentrations (1 - 10%) seem to have no obvious effect at all, while around 25% it seems to cause temporary sterility - the gametes seem particularly sensitive. As it approaches 50%, cell reproduction stops and death is rapid. Very few eukaryotes can survive >50% heavy water in their cells. Though a few types of yeast and single-celled plants seem to be able to survive in conditions like many bacteria can - up to 95% or more heavy water. But all kinds of life die at 100% heavy water, as far as I know. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_water#Effect_on_biological_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_water#Effect_on_biologic...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

tantalor 3y ago

idk about "unnatural", it's basically death by physics. You are killed by the universe. Sounds natural to me. I'd put in the same category as falling from a great height.

StrangeATractor 3y ago
> I'd put in the same category as falling from a great height Yeah, onto the surface of the sun.
michaelcampbell 3y ago
One way to categorize, I guess. Prior to humans enriching radioactive materials, how many humans died from ARS vs. falling from a great height?
dmd 3y ago
What other kind of death is there?
Cyberdog 3y ago
Well, if we want to put it that way, all deaths are death by physics, aren't they? Including murder.