4 ms·

This narrative does not jive with my memory. There were extremely vocal critics of the invasion of Iraq, long before troops were on the ground. Some of the U.S.

by beart 3y ago

This narrative does not jive with my memory. There were extremely vocal critics of the invasion of Iraq, long before troops were on the ground. Some of the U.S. closest allies refused to participate. Much of the international community was opposed to the invasion, even with the U.S. doing whatever it could to push for a coalition. Comparing the invasion of Iraq with the current situation in Ukraine is like comparing apples with hand grenades.

willcipriano 3y ago
> This narrative does not jive with my memory. In the years since, lots of people came out and said "they were always against the war" likely creating false memories. Here is one example, it's very common: https://www.factcheck.org/2019/09/bidens-record-on-iraq-war/ https://www.factcheck.org/2019/09/bidens-record-on-iraq-war/ The war went on for decades, during that time both Democrats and Republicans had control of the presidency and congress at various points, nobody saw fit to even bring a vote to end the war. They would go years without mentioning it, and now that they want to start another they "were always against it" all of the sudden.
- lesuorac 3y ago
  Public opinion was really 50-50 [1] in the US so you're going to hear a lot of people that say they were against it because a lot of people were. Of course, it went from a high of 2/3 for to now 2/3 against so the 1/3 flip-flopers will also be a lot of people. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_opinion_in_the_United_States_on_the_invasion_of_Iraq#Post_9/11_sentiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_opinion_in_the_United_S...
  - westurner 3y ago
    List of congressional opponents of the Iraq War: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_congressional_opponents_of_the_Iraq_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_congressional_opponent... That administration increased expenses by trillions and then cut tax revenue by trillions ( "starve the beast", "scorched earth") and now we're at shutdown showdown again without money for healthcare, infrastructure, or education. We need to fund Q12 and K12CS education and update curricula to win the actual competition. Without funding due to defense offense spending without ROI, we cannot fund education and will thus also lose the real war: the War on Healthcare. Repeal of the 2002 AUMF: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeal_of_the_2002_AUMF https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeal_of_the_2002_AUMF Senate Report on Iraqi WMD Intelligence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Report_on_Iraqi_WMD_Intelligence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Report_on_Iraqi_WMD_Int... Had they floated "we're going to start multi-trillion-dollar war and cut then cut taxes" in the election, I doubt they would've won Florida by a hanging chad in 1999. . (The full cost of war calculations should include lifetime medical for now-disabled veterans, whose families also need healthcare.) I think you should pay the bills for your war now.
    - westurner 3y ago
      FWIW the initial requested outlay to relieve them of apparently over-spec mortar tubes / new wmd production was ~$80b in 2003. Real costs of war included fuel surcharges on groceries, which increased CPI (Consumer Price Inflation) and stressed families' budgets leading into to The Great Recession; then the worst recession since the great depression (1929-1939) prior to WWII (1939-1945). The actual impact on the (OPEC-specified) production rate (not price) of oil due to tbh relatively minimal Iraqi production capabilities having been offline due to US invasion in order to world police save the day does not at all explain the action in the oil commodity market through those years; costs of war calculations - after deaths and orphans and missed school person/years - do not include what we paid for gas at the pump. The Great Recession: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Recession https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Recession World oil market chronology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_oil_market_chronology_from_2003 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_oil_market_chronology_fr... ; from $30/barrel in 2000 to $140/barrel in 2008 (and DoD is the largest institutional consumer of oil in the world, especially when at war)

by beart 3y ago

willcipriano 3y ago

> This narrative does not jive with my memory. In the years since, lots of people came out and said "they were always against the war" likely creating false memories. Here is one example, it's very common: https://www.factcheck.org/2019/09/bidens-record-on-iraq-war/ https://www.factcheck.org/2019/09/bidens-record-on-iraq-war/ The war went on for decades, during that time both Democrats and Republicans had control of the presidency and congress at various points, nobody saw fit to even bring a vote to end the war. They would go years without mentioning it, and now that they want to start another they "were always against it" all of the sudden.

lesuorac 3y ago
Public opinion was really 50-50 [1] in the US so you're going to hear a lot of people that say they were against it because a lot of people were. Of course, it went from a high of 2/3 for to now 2/3 against so the 1/3 flip-flopers will also be a lot of people. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_opinion_in_the_United_States_on_the_invasion_of_Iraq#Post_9/11_sentiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_opinion_in_the_United_S...
- westurner 3y ago
  List of congressional opponents of the Iraq War: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_congressional_opponents_of_the_Iraq_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_congressional_opponent... That administration increased expenses by trillions and then cut tax revenue by trillions ( "starve the beast", "scorched earth") and now we're at shutdown showdown again without money for healthcare, infrastructure, or education. We need to fund Q12 and K12CS education and update curricula to win the actual competition. Without funding due to defense offense spending without ROI, we cannot fund education and will thus also lose the real war: the War on Healthcare. Repeal of the 2002 AUMF: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeal_of_the_2002_AUMF https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeal_of_the_2002_AUMF Senate Report on Iraqi WMD Intelligence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Report_on_Iraqi_WMD_Intelligence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Report_on_Iraqi_WMD_Int... Had they floated "we're going to start multi-trillion-dollar war and cut then cut taxes" in the election, I doubt they would've won Florida by a hanging chad in 1999. . (The full cost of war calculations should include lifetime medical for now-disabled veterans, whose families also need healthcare.) I think you should pay the bills for your war now.
  - westurner 3y ago
    FWIW the initial requested outlay to relieve them of apparently over-spec mortar tubes / new wmd production was ~$80b in 2003. Real costs of war included fuel surcharges on groceries, which increased CPI (Consumer Price Inflation) and stressed families' budgets leading into to The Great Recession; then the worst recession since the great depression (1929-1939) prior to WWII (1939-1945). The actual impact on the (OPEC-specified) production rate (not price) of oil due to tbh relatively minimal Iraqi production capabilities having been offline due to US invasion in order to world police save the day does not at all explain the action in the oil commodity market through those years; costs of war calculations - after deaths and orphans and missed school person/years - do not include what we paid for gas at the pump. The Great Recession: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Recession https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Recession World oil market chronology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_oil_market_chronology_from_2003 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_oil_market_chronology_fr... ; from $30/barrel in 2000 to $140/barrel in 2008 (and DoD is the largest institutional consumer of oil in the world, especially when at war)