4 ms·

> We were on the right side in Iraq, with the same voices giving it full throated support, that was until the fog of war lifted and pretty much everyone accepte

by _kbh_ 3y ago

> We were on the right side in Iraq, with the same voices giving it full throated support, that was until the fog of war lifted and pretty much everyone accepted it was a scam. How do you think Ukraine is a scam?, I can show you hundred of videos of Ukrainians using western weapons to kill the imperialistic invaders that are trying to end their existence.

willcipriano 3y ago
I can show you videos of the twin towers falling, that doesn't mean that it benefits the average citizen to go drone strike some weddings. For one thing, I question the europeans and their lackluster response to what is occurring on their continent. Why is the US taxpayer so much more invested in this contrasted to a French or German taxpayer? Personally looking at things at home we have higher priorities than this. Other nations seem to be making a similar choice given their lack of financial commitment.
- beart 3y ago
  Germany has increased their defense spending by at least $100 billion since the start of the war.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - willcipriano 3y ago
    That's nice for them. Germany committed to send 2.47 billion in contrast to 46 and a half billion from the US. https://www.statista.com/chart/27278/military-aid-to-ukraine-by-country/ https://www.statista.com/chart/27278/military-aid-to-ukraine...
    - _kbh_ 3y ago
      The German military budget is around 1/15th the USA, so thats not that far off being in line.
      - willcipriano 3y ago
        Seems like Germany is less worried about its neighbors than we are to have such a small budget for defence.
        _djo_ 3y ago
        They were by their own admission complacent, believing that trade and closer economic integration would remove the threat. They’ve changed their minds since Russia invaded Ukraine. Germany has also been able to benefit from the overall NATO and European security umbrella and, unlike the US, UK, or France, has no alliances or foreign territories that require it to provide security or uphold security guarantees far from home. That meant a different force design and spending profile. For instance, Germany has no strategic need for carriers, which France, the UK, and US have, purely because it doesn’t need that level of global force projection.
        Timon3 3y ago
        How much of the bill should Germany shoulder for you to be happy with it? Please give an exact minimal amount.
        willcipriano 3y ago
        According to this the US spends 8.23 percent of its budget on it's military, Germany spends 2.52 percent. Once Germany gets to say 8 percent we can start talking about US aid.
        Timon3 3y ago
        Why 8 percent? Why not 7 or 6 or 5 or 4 or 3? Why not 8.2 percent?
- _kbh_ 3y ago
  > I question the europeans and their lackluster response to what is occurring on their continent. You need to look at Eastern Europe to see the opposite of a lacklustre response. Poland especially has been donating a lot of gear by themselves they are one of Ukraines biggest supplies of MTB's and aircraft. Western Europes lacklustre response can be seen as a combination of thinking that Ukraine would fall quickly and not wanting to 'escalate' the conflict, likely borne at least partially from Russian intelligence efforts to stop western flows to Ukraine. > Personally looking at things at home we have higher priorities than this. Other nations seem to be making a similar choice given their lack of financial commitment. Tonnes of nations are contributing aide to Ukraine in differing amounts, a lot of other countries has militaries and supplies that are a lot smaller then American and cannot give as much.
- lesuorac 3y ago
  > Why is the US taxpayer so much more invested in this contrasted to a French or German taxpayer? I mean the US has made a choice in that rather then doing healthcare for all and other social programs to run a jobs program through the military industrial complex. Investing into Ukraine is investing into the US as expensive missiles and etc mean that American companies (and their workers) receive a lot of tax money which goes to benefit their local (American) communities. Now you could argue that we should invest backwards into the US by building bridges to nowhere and other types of projects but my point is not that military investment is the best use way to support the economy just that is does support the economy.
- stracer 3y ago
  > Why is the US taxpayer so much more invested in this contrasted to a French or German taxpayer? It's not about the taxpayer, but about what the powerful elites feel and want. France and Germany are closer to Russia, benefited from trade with Russia, and are strongly influenced by decades of Russian influence (Schroeder on the take, anti-war, anti-nuclear groups etc.) So they have to be brow-beaten and dragged into doing the right thing and help Ukraine. US benefits from Ukraine weakening Russia, it's a no-brainer.
Cosmopolitican 3y ago
[flagged]
- _kbh_ 3y ago
  > Is there any strategic reason the USA may have wanted this war to occur? Any reason that Russia cannot just leave Ukraine?, it would be the best way for them to maintain there forces.
  - Cosmopolitican 3y ago
    [flagged]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

by _kbh_ 3y ago

willcipriano 3y ago

I can show you videos of the twin towers falling, that doesn't mean that it benefits the average citizen to go drone strike some weddings. For one thing, I question the europeans and their lackluster response to what is occurring on their continent. Why is the US taxpayer so much more invested in this contrasted to a French or German taxpayer? Personally looking at things at home we have higher priorities than this. Other nations seem to be making a similar choice given their lack of financial commitment.

beart 3y ago
Germany has increased their defense spending by at least $100 billion since the start of the war.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- willcipriano 3y ago
  That's nice for them. Germany committed to send 2.47 billion in contrast to 46 and a half billion from the US. https://www.statista.com/chart/27278/military-aid-to-ukraine-by-country/ https://www.statista.com/chart/27278/military-aid-to-ukraine...
  - _kbh_ 3y ago
    The German military budget is around 1/15th the USA, so thats not that far off being in line.
    - willcipriano 3y ago
      Seems like Germany is less worried about its neighbors than we are to have such a small budget for defence.
      - _djo_ 3y ago
        They were by their own admission complacent, believing that trade and closer economic integration would remove the threat. They’ve changed their minds since Russia invaded Ukraine. Germany has also been able to benefit from the overall NATO and European security umbrella and, unlike the US, UK, or France, has no alliances or foreign territories that require it to provide security or uphold security guarantees far from home. That meant a different force design and spending profile. For instance, Germany has no strategic need for carriers, which France, the UK, and US have, purely because it doesn’t need that level of global force projection.
      - Timon3 3y ago
        How much of the bill should Germany shoulder for you to be happy with it? Please give an exact minimal amount.
        willcipriano 3y ago
        According to this the US spends 8.23 percent of its budget on it's military, Germany spends 2.52 percent. Once Germany gets to say 8 percent we can start talking about US aid.
        Timon3 3y ago
        Why 8 percent? Why not 7 or 6 or 5 or 4 or 3? Why not 8.2 percent?
_kbh_ 3y ago
> I question the europeans and their lackluster response to what is occurring on their continent. You need to look at Eastern Europe to see the opposite of a lacklustre response. Poland especially has been donating a lot of gear by themselves they are one of Ukraines biggest supplies of MTB's and aircraft. Western Europes lacklustre response can be seen as a combination of thinking that Ukraine would fall quickly and not wanting to 'escalate' the conflict, likely borne at least partially from Russian intelligence efforts to stop western flows to Ukraine. > Personally looking at things at home we have higher priorities than this. Other nations seem to be making a similar choice given their lack of financial commitment. Tonnes of nations are contributing aide to Ukraine in differing amounts, a lot of other countries has militaries and supplies that are a lot smaller then American and cannot give as much.
lesuorac 3y ago
> Why is the US taxpayer so much more invested in this contrasted to a French or German taxpayer? I mean the US has made a choice in that rather then doing healthcare for all and other social programs to run a jobs program through the military industrial complex. Investing into Ukraine is investing into the US as expensive missiles and etc mean that American companies (and their workers) receive a lot of tax money which goes to benefit their local (American) communities. Now you could argue that we should invest backwards into the US by building bridges to nowhere and other types of projects but my point is not that military investment is the best use way to support the economy just that is does support the economy.
stracer 3y ago
> Why is the US taxpayer so much more invested in this contrasted to a French or German taxpayer? It's not about the taxpayer, but about what the powerful elites feel and want. France and Germany are closer to Russia, benefited from trade with Russia, and are strongly influenced by decades of Russian influence (Schroeder on the take, anti-war, anti-nuclear groups etc.) So they have to be brow-beaten and dragged into doing the right thing and help Ukraine. US benefits from Ukraine weakening Russia, it's a no-brainer.

Cosmopolitican 3y ago

[flagged]

_kbh_ 3y ago
> Is there any strategic reason the USA may have wanted this war to occur? Any reason that Russia cannot just leave Ukraine?, it would be the best way for them to maintain there forces.
- Cosmopolitican 3y ago
  [flagged]

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]