6 ms·

Can we please stop referring to adult women (in a professional context, no less) as girls?

lorettahe 15y ago
Sorry, I'll bear that in mind next time :P
deathwarmedover 15y ago
Could you elaborate on why you are against this? I use boy/girl interchangeably with man/woman and don't attach any meaning beyond stating gender. Do you feel strongly that it belittles adults to refer to them as boys or girls?
- chalst 15y ago
  It depends on context, but when we are talking about the competence of people to do a professional's job, then yes, girl might suggest that any competence they have is precocity, they are not mature and well-rounded, and they are not generally what you want the pay grade above where they are. And girl/boy are not quite analogous. "Boy" can be used in a belittling way, but it more often used in phrases like "one of the boys" to mean easy-going and fun: a positive statement about someone's ability to work in groups. It's not an easy point: there's a few women I know who think that not using "girl" means that you think they are too old to be attractive. I think that often holds in both the US and the UK; it used to be true here in Germany, but I think calling a woman "Maedchen" in her workplace today is positively offensive. I advise you not to call female colleagues girls in the office, and be sensitive outside the office. It's a good topic to raise in conversation.
  - deathwarmedover 15y ago
    To be clearer, I was more taking issue with original comment's blanket rule that adult women can never be called girls. As you said, "It depends on context", and I think the original comment neglects this. I'm totally aware it's not always appropriate to use such terms.
- untog 15y ago
  Absolutely. Well, as a male, if someone calls me a boy I consider it belittling. I'm pushing 30 now, so it doesn't bother me so much, but when I was in my early 20's it definitely seemed like code for "inexperienced idiot".
- clarkevans 15y ago
  She didn't use boy/girl interchangeably. She used girl/man.
hythloday 15y ago
God, yes please. Talking about "men and girls" as the article did sets my teeth on edge.
Jun8 15y ago
Can we please please stop being hypersensitive about "sexist language", which pronoun to use, etc and leave this to English majors. The words "boy" and "girl" are usually used for endearment, as they are here. Many female hacker groups have the word "girl"are in their title. Of course these terms terms have been used in a deragotary sense until recently, e.g. watch any episode of Mad Men. That doesn't mean that they should ne banned.
- hythloday 15y ago
  No-one is talking about "banning", it's a bit weird you'd use that word. But that you missed that the article doesn't have the word "boy" is the reason people object to the word "girl" in that context.
  - Jun8 15y ago
    I was referring to the "rule" given in the parent comment about not using the word girl in professional contexts (also implied that it shouldn't be used in other contexts, as well). My point is that stating (or making up) such rules without context is not useful. As an example consider the rule "Man must wear ties in a professional setting". Well, there are many of cases where this rule applies, but many other ones where it seems stuck up to wear a tie, you just have to adjust to the context you're in. As to why the article does not use the word boy: 1. As I said, such terms are usually used as endearment, for the group you belong to. Phrases like "Us girls can program, too", or "Boys, let's go get this YC interview" are common and you cannot replace women and men in these contexts. I think the OP was using girl in this sense in her post. 2. The correct counterpart to the use of girl seems to be guy (although there are phrases like "old boy's network", etc.) mainly, I think, because of alliteration. Some opponents to sexist language are offended by guy, too. To reiterate my point, as hackers let us think about and then act rather than regurgitate rules that may be dictated by others. Let us not do simple string matching for offensive words but set our regular expressions wide to check the context that words are being used. P.S. An interesting parallel to this discussion would be the debate on the use of the N-word, which is considered taboo by many but used by others freely.
clarkevans 15y ago
Yes, _but_ I think her article properly frames her mind-set, she is young (early/mid 20's) and may yet experience what PyLadies and other related groups seek to discuss: 1) She doesn't have much corporate experience yet, and is drawing conclusions based on her limited experience. 2) She's not in a position of authority... sexism really shows its ugly face when there are power differentials where the woman is on top. 3) She's not yet of an age where child bearing is typically discussed, once she hits her 30's she'll have to deal with this regardless if she wants to have children. 4) Just because you're female doesn't mean you arn't sexist. As others have pointed out, it is a very small minority of problem people. However, they can have a very adverse affect on an individual woman and her career. Sexism is something we should all be actively aware of and do our best to counter when we see it. It only takes a few corrections (by a male colleagues) to address some of the more prevalent issues -- but you have to do it or the sexism will persist.
- lorettahe 15y ago
  Perhaps I will understand things a better as things move along. It is true that I have only had three jobs so far, which isn't many, compared to many of the people here. This article is really about talking to males at work about geeky stuff and that we don't have to feel so special. Regarding childbearing, all women in other industries have to do it too, and there doesn't seem to be MathTeacherLadies or groups talking about this kind of things. We are sitting in front of a computer all day long, like many other office jobs, and those other industries have male and female workers working in the same office too, why is IT so strange and special? Sexism is a problem in workplaces across all industries, and I do, as most others, hope the occurrences of such horrid incidents will gradually disappear over time. All I wanted to say in the article was, in IT, being male or female does not, and should not matter. At work, as a female, one CAN join in nice conversations with males. A female geek does not have to talk to a female geek about geeky things. That's the only thing. I did not intend to refer to sexism. It was not the original intent of the article. If I have offended you with my article, I sincerely apologise.
  - clarkevans 15y ago
    You didn't offend me at all. I just have a 2 year old daughter and I've seen first hand things that I never want her to have to experience. So, I'm selfish that way. I'm specifically responding to the last paragraph in your post where you're characterizing PyLadies as a "strange female programmer group". I'm absolutely certain most members of PyLadies are quite comfortable "talking to guys". This isn't about inability of some women to work as a programmer in a male dominated hierarchy. This isn't about the vast majority of nerds in software development. It is about power dynamics that will impact your career. Perhaps I.T. is "strange and special" for women because technologists, in general, tend to have more leverage with regard to management/owners than in other industries.

Sorry, I'll bear that in mind next time :P

Could you elaborate on why you are against this? I use boy/girl interchangeably with man/woman and don't attach any meaning beyond stating gender. Do you feel strongly that it belittles adults to refer to them as boys or girls?

chalst 15y ago
It depends on context, but when we are talking about the competence of people to do a professional's job, then yes, girl might suggest that any competence they have is precocity, they are not mature and well-rounded, and they are not generally what you want the pay grade above where they are. And girl/boy are not quite analogous. "Boy" can be used in a belittling way, but it more often used in phrases like "one of the boys" to mean easy-going and fun: a positive statement about someone's ability to work in groups. It's not an easy point: there's a few women I know who think that not using "girl" means that you think they are too old to be attractive. I think that often holds in both the US and the UK; it used to be true here in Germany, but I think calling a woman "Maedchen" in her workplace today is positively offensive. I advise you not to call female colleagues girls in the office, and be sensitive outside the office. It's a good topic to raise in conversation.
- deathwarmedover 15y ago
  To be clearer, I was more taking issue with original comment's blanket rule that adult women can never be called girls. As you said, "It depends on context", and I think the original comment neglects this. I'm totally aware it's not always appropriate to use such terms.
untog 15y ago
Absolutely. Well, as a male, if someone calls me a boy I consider it belittling. I'm pushing 30 now, so it doesn't bother me so much, but when I was in my early 20's it definitely seemed like code for "inexperienced idiot".
clarkevans 15y ago
She didn't use boy/girl interchangeably. She used girl/man.

hythloday 15y ago

God, yes please. Talking about "men and girls" as the article did sets my teeth on edge.

Jun8 15y ago

Can we please please stop being hypersensitive about "sexist language", which pronoun to use, etc and leave this to English majors. The words "boy" and "girl" are usually used for endearment, as they are here. Many female hacker groups have the word "girl"are in their title. Of course these terms terms have been used in a deragotary sense until recently, e.g. watch any episode of Mad Men. That doesn't mean that they should ne banned.

hythloday 15y ago
No-one is talking about "banning", it's a bit weird you'd use that word. But that you missed that the article doesn't have the word "boy" is the reason people object to the word "girl" in that context.
- Jun8 15y ago
  I was referring to the "rule" given in the parent comment about not using the word girl in professional contexts (also implied that it shouldn't be used in other contexts, as well). My point is that stating (or making up) such rules without context is not useful. As an example consider the rule "Man must wear ties in a professional setting". Well, there are many of cases where this rule applies, but many other ones where it seems stuck up to wear a tie, you just have to adjust to the context you're in. As to why the article does not use the word boy: 1. As I said, such terms are usually used as endearment, for the group you belong to. Phrases like "Us girls can program, too", or "Boys, let's go get this YC interview" are common and you cannot replace women and men in these contexts. I think the OP was using girl in this sense in her post. 2. The correct counterpart to the use of girl seems to be guy (although there are phrases like "old boy's network", etc.) mainly, I think, because of alliteration. Some opponents to sexist language are offended by guy, too. To reiterate my point, as hackers let us think about and then act rather than regurgitate rules that may be dictated by others. Let us not do simple string matching for offensive words but set our regular expressions wide to check the context that words are being used. P.S. An interesting parallel to this discussion would be the debate on the use of the N-word, which is considered taboo by many but used by others freely.

clarkevans 15y ago

Yes, _but_ I think her article properly frames her mind-set, she is young (early/mid 20's) and may yet experience what PyLadies and other related groups seek to discuss: 1) She doesn't have much corporate experience yet, and is drawing conclusions based on her limited experience. 2) She's not in a position of authority... sexism really shows its ugly face when there are power differentials where the woman is on top. 3) She's not yet of an age where child bearing is typically discussed, once she hits her 30's she'll have to deal with this regardless if she wants to have children. 4) Just because you're female doesn't mean you arn't sexist. As others have pointed out, it is a very small minority of problem people. However, they can have a very adverse affect on an individual woman and her career. Sexism is something we should all be actively aware of and do our best to counter when we see it. It only takes a few corrections (by a male colleagues) to address some of the more prevalent issues -- but you have to do it or the sexism will persist.

lorettahe 15y ago
Perhaps I will understand things a better as things move along. It is true that I have only had three jobs so far, which isn't many, compared to many of the people here. This article is really about talking to males at work about geeky stuff and that we don't have to feel so special. Regarding childbearing, all women in other industries have to do it too, and there doesn't seem to be MathTeacherLadies or groups talking about this kind of things. We are sitting in front of a computer all day long, like many other office jobs, and those other industries have male and female workers working in the same office too, why is IT so strange and special? Sexism is a problem in workplaces across all industries, and I do, as most others, hope the occurrences of such horrid incidents will gradually disappear over time. All I wanted to say in the article was, in IT, being male or female does not, and should not matter. At work, as a female, one CAN join in nice conversations with males. A female geek does not have to talk to a female geek about geeky things. That's the only thing. I did not intend to refer to sexism. It was not the original intent of the article. If I have offended you with my article, I sincerely apologise.
- clarkevans 15y ago
  You didn't offend me at all. I just have a 2 year old daughter and I've seen first hand things that I never want her to have to experience. So, I'm selfish that way. I'm specifically responding to the last paragraph in your post where you're characterizing PyLadies as a "strange female programmer group". I'm absolutely certain most members of PyLadies are quite comfortable "talking to guys". This isn't about inability of some women to work as a programmer in a male dominated hierarchy. This isn't about the vast majority of nerds in software development. It is about power dynamics that will impact your career. Perhaps I.T. is "strange and special" for women because technologists, in general, tend to have more leverage with regard to management/owners than in other industries.