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The big and critical difference between TikTok connections to CCP and Meta connections to three letter agencies is that US and EU are military allies while US a

The big and critical difference between TikTok connections to CCP and Meta connections to three letter agencies is that US and EU are military allies while US and China are strategic adversaries with chance of real hot war in the next 5 years. Military umbrella that US provides to EU that includes military bases, transfer of military technology and freedom of navigation for middle east oil forces all parties to play much nicer. Fines to tech companies are fine (and often are supported by US regulators) but drastic steps like even seriously proposing banning big US tech companies are obviously over the line and are unacceptable. Even beyond alliance, EU can start trade war but do not be surprised if then BMW and Mercedes cars surprising develop safety issues that requires full recall and compensation to all car buyers for harm.

pjc50 3y ago
The argument is that the EU cannot and should not even attempt to prevent unaccountable spying on its citizens by foreign states, or it will have its legs broken?
- dandellion 3y ago
  No, that's the approach in South America. In Europe it would be a bit more subtle.
- amadeuspagel 3y ago
  I'm assuming "having its legs" broken refers to having german car companies treated by the US like silicon valley tech companies are treated by the EU?
  - pjc50 3y ago
    Are the German car companies spying in the United States? (OK, that's snarky, but the car companies did actually have to pay out .. because they defrauded US consumers! Not all "crime" committed by companies is made up to sell trade restrictions!)
  - makeitdouble 3y ago
    Is that much different from the current foreign car import quotas and financial aids to categories dominated by US makers ?
  - Macha 3y ago
    So... like they already do? EU car and airplane manufacturers already produce their US models in the US due to tariffs rendering importing EU models uncompetitive.
DoughnutHole 3y ago
The trade wars have already begun with the Inflation Reduction Act - the US is already turning protectionist and subsidising its own industry to the detriment of its allies' industry. I wouldn't put it past a future government to take more drastic action, whether or not the EU takes a hard stance on US tech. The US is still a vital ally of Europe and I'm optimistic that this relationship will continue. But Trump and the alignment of factions of the Republican Party with Russian interests have demonstrated that this relationship is no longer rock-solid. Even the Democrats are shakier than they used to be, and orienting for a more self-reliant US. The US is preparing itself for the end of the post-Cold War liberal global order. The European-American alliance may survive this shift or it may not. Drastic action against US tech is absolutely still premature, but we should be prepared for European interests to no longer necessarily be the same as American interests.
- phpisthebest 3y ago
  >>But Trump and the alignment of factions of the Republican Party with Russian interests hmmm >>> already begun with the Inflation Reduction Act - the US is already turning protectionist you do know that was a Democratic supported, passed and celebrated law right? Not republican. I have no love loss for the republicans, but this idea that all the problems with US politics are because of Republicans (or worse the Trump bogey man) is moronic and ignorant. >The European-American alliance may survive this shift or it may not. This shift has to take place with Europe advancing more of it national defense itself, America simply can not afford to be the world police anymore. The American People are demanding ever increasing social programs, EU Style Social programs, which the EU has been able to have due to the protection umbrella the US as provided at great cost since WWII, to date almost none of the NATO Nations have ever honored their miniscule treaty requirements of 3% GDP defense spending, when they should be closer to 10-15%, but most are at 1-2% (or less) @32 Trillion Dollars in debt, the US Bank is collapsing, and closed...
  - DoughnutHole 3y ago
    > you do know that was a Democratic supported, passed and celebrated law right? Not republican. I addressed this - the Democrats are also orienting towards a more protectionist, isolated US. The European-American relationship is also deteriorating under the current administration. But it's not Democrats that are arguing for abandoning Ukraine and acquiescing to Russia, it's factions of the Republican Party. The reality of which party does what is frankly irrelevant though - the perception of people and governments of Europe is that the US is not as reliably staunch of an ally as they once were, and this kicked off under the Trump administration. Europeans believe that a Republican administration is less supportive of a strong alliance, and this perception of flakiness is driving a push for European self-reliance. > to date almost none of the NATO Nations have ever honored their miniscule treaty requirements of 3% GDP This is already happening. Several of the biggest freeloading countries have promised massive increases in spending in response to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, most notably Germany. They haven't met their targets yet, but an era of European self-reliance in defence is coming, in spite of current struggles with inflation and supply issues. Things are moving slowly, but European governments largely no longer believe they are safe without playing an active role in their defence. > when they should be closer to 10-15% That'd be an insane spending on defence - for reference the US spends 3.5% and Russia spends 4.1%. Ukraine spends 34% and they're currently locked in a desperate struggle for survival.
Sharlin 3y ago
> Military umbrella that US provides to EU that includes […] …and also includes spying on EU citizens on EU (and the Five Eyes) leaders' behalf (aka "sharing intelligence"). Don't forget that data transfer to the US also provides European leaders a way to circumvent their own privacy regulations, which is unacceptable.
pyrale 3y ago
> Even beyond alliance, EU can start trade war That's how European leaders saw IRA. They didn't retaliate because of the current context, but I find it surprising that US technologists are so oblivious to this kind of context, while resenting so acutely when US companies are asked to respect EU law.
logdap 3y ago
Facebook being banned in the EU has no justifiable bearing on NATO obligations. NATO is not a trade agreement.
freetanga 3y ago
Thanks for reminding me of the book “War is a racket”. American farm boys being brainwashed into Americana,and send off to die to prop up American Businesses. From the Banana Wars for the American Standard Fruit company, to getting PTSD in Iraq to make Dick Cheney wealthier, to who knows where next to defend Meta. Nothing has changed in America. The military umbrella is watered with blood of lower and middle class boys and girls, but only to project Tycoons and Billionaires. They could repel NATO, but if Europe slides with China then things will look very shitty for the Western Hemisphere.

pjc50 3y ago

The argument is that the EU cannot and should not even attempt to prevent unaccountable spying on its citizens by foreign states, or it will have its legs broken?

dandellion 3y ago
No, that's the approach in South America. In Europe it would be a bit more subtle.
amadeuspagel 3y ago
I'm assuming "having its legs" broken refers to having german car companies treated by the US like silicon valley tech companies are treated by the EU?
- pjc50 3y ago
  Are the German car companies spying in the United States? (OK, that's snarky, but the car companies did actually have to pay out .. because they defrauded US consumers! Not all "crime" committed by companies is made up to sell trade restrictions!)
- makeitdouble 3y ago
  Is that much different from the current foreign car import quotas and financial aids to categories dominated by US makers ?
- Macha 3y ago
  So... like they already do? EU car and airplane manufacturers already produce their US models in the US due to tariffs rendering importing EU models uncompetitive.

DoughnutHole 3y ago

The trade wars have already begun with the Inflation Reduction Act - the US is already turning protectionist and subsidising its own industry to the detriment of its allies' industry. I wouldn't put it past a future government to take more drastic action, whether or not the EU takes a hard stance on US tech. The US is still a vital ally of Europe and I'm optimistic that this relationship will continue. But Trump and the alignment of factions of the Republican Party with Russian interests have demonstrated that this relationship is no longer rock-solid. Even the Democrats are shakier than they used to be, and orienting for a more self-reliant US. The US is preparing itself for the end of the post-Cold War liberal global order. The European-American alliance may survive this shift or it may not. Drastic action against US tech is absolutely still premature, but we should be prepared for European interests to no longer necessarily be the same as American interests.

phpisthebest 3y ago
>>But Trump and the alignment of factions of the Republican Party with Russian interests hmmm >>> already begun with the Inflation Reduction Act - the US is already turning protectionist you do know that was a Democratic supported, passed and celebrated law right? Not republican. I have no love loss for the republicans, but this idea that all the problems with US politics are because of Republicans (or worse the Trump bogey man) is moronic and ignorant. >The European-American alliance may survive this shift or it may not. This shift has to take place with Europe advancing more of it national defense itself, America simply can not afford to be the world police anymore. The American People are demanding ever increasing social programs, EU Style Social programs, which the EU has been able to have due to the protection umbrella the US as provided at great cost since WWII, to date almost none of the NATO Nations have ever honored their miniscule treaty requirements of 3% GDP defense spending, when they should be closer to 10-15%, but most are at 1-2% (or less) @32 Trillion Dollars in debt, the US Bank is collapsing, and closed...
- DoughnutHole 3y ago
  > you do know that was a Democratic supported, passed and celebrated law right? Not republican. I addressed this - the Democrats are also orienting towards a more protectionist, isolated US. The European-American relationship is also deteriorating under the current administration. But it's not Democrats that are arguing for abandoning Ukraine and acquiescing to Russia, it's factions of the Republican Party. The reality of which party does what is frankly irrelevant though - the perception of people and governments of Europe is that the US is not as reliably staunch of an ally as they once were, and this kicked off under the Trump administration. Europeans believe that a Republican administration is less supportive of a strong alliance, and this perception of flakiness is driving a push for European self-reliance. > to date almost none of the NATO Nations have ever honored their miniscule treaty requirements of 3% GDP This is already happening. Several of the biggest freeloading countries have promised massive increases in spending in response to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, most notably Germany. They haven't met their targets yet, but an era of European self-reliance in defence is coming, in spite of current struggles with inflation and supply issues. Things are moving slowly, but European governments largely no longer believe they are safe without playing an active role in their defence. > when they should be closer to 10-15% That'd be an insane spending on defence - for reference the US spends 3.5% and Russia spends 4.1%. Ukraine spends 34% and they're currently locked in a desperate struggle for survival.

Sharlin 3y ago

> Military umbrella that US provides to EU that includes […] …and also includes spying on EU citizens on EU (and the Five Eyes) leaders' behalf (aka "sharing intelligence"). Don't forget that data transfer to the US also provides European leaders a way to circumvent their own privacy regulations, which is unacceptable.

pyrale 3y ago

> Even beyond alliance, EU can start trade war That's how European leaders saw IRA. They didn't retaliate because of the current context, but I find it surprising that US technologists are so oblivious to this kind of context, while resenting so acutely when US companies are asked to respect EU law.

logdap 3y ago

Facebook being banned in the EU has no justifiable bearing on NATO obligations. NATO is not a trade agreement.

freetanga 3y ago

Thanks for reminding me of the book “War is a racket”. American farm boys being brainwashed into Americana,and send off to die to prop up American Businesses. From the Banana Wars for the American Standard Fruit company, to getting PTSD in Iraq to make Dick Cheney wealthier, to who knows where next to defend Meta. Nothing has changed in America. The military umbrella is watered with blood of lower and middle class boys and girls, but only to project Tycoons and Billionaires. They could repel NATO, but if Europe slides with China then things will look very shitty for the Western Hemisphere.