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I never quite bought this. It is known that this is even done live, on request. And in those cases, yes, the viewer who made requests or payments to make it hap

I never quite bought this. It is known that this is even done live, on request. And in those cases, yes, the viewer who made requests or payments to make it happen is definitely complicit. Where the argument loses me is that I simply don't believe that the demand in any way causes people to become rapists just to produce content. They were gonna become rapists anyway. The better argument that seeking it out at all should be illegal is that it's a (very severe) privacy violation. And I would agree with that. But it is hard to get away from the fact that part of this really is thought crime. In some countries, even things like loli manga are illegal even though no children were harmed making them. And speaking of demand and exploitation of children, should we prosecute people who bought clothes made with child labour? Their demand also caused child exploitation in some sense. Serious question, because I think prosecuting based on vague economic theories of "motivating suppliers" sets an interesting precedent for all sorts of different behaviours normally thought of as perfectly legal.

1827163 3y ago
Yes, as a thought experiment, maybe we should prosecute those who purchase eggs, even free range ones, from so called 'ethical' farms, for animal abuse? Each hen lays 600 eggs in its lifespan [1]. For every hen there was a male chick that was shredded alive in a macerator in the hatchery [2,3]. The link between abuse and consumption is concrete in this case. Buying more eggs requires the farm to raise more hens, which causes more male chicks to be shredded. There is a direct supplier and customer here, and money is clearly transferred. So the average person consumes 277 eggs per year [4], that means approximately every 2 years, we all shred a male chick alive, by proxy. And by using the same argument as for the illegal pornography, we should be going to jail for animal abuse? 1. https://backyardpoultry.iamcountryside.com/chickens-101/how-long-do-chickens-lay-eggs-breeds-that-go-the-extra-mile/ https://backyardpoultry.iamcountryside.com/chickens-101/how-... 2. https://thehumaneleague.org.uk/article/what-happens-to-male-chicks-in-the-egg-industry https://thehumaneleague.org.uk/article/what-happens-to-male-... 3. https://demeter.net/chick-culling/ https://demeter.net/chick-culling/ 4. https://www.statista.com/statistics/183678/per-capita-consumption-of-eggs-in-the-us-since-2000/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/183678/per-capita-consum... With illegal pornography, which is information, and can be copied effortlessly at zero cost, and when no money is transferred, the link between consumption and abuse is much less clear. In fact most of those images are distributed for free, so I guess it's pirated illegal pornography that people are viewing then? That hardly makes a direct case for increasing the production of such images?
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
  I think in general some externalities should be banned at the source, i.e macerating male chicks en masse should just be illegal(I'm not a huge animal rights person in general, but this one seems clear cut to me). Whereas others that can't just stop overnight(say carbon emissions) should be taxed at the source to phase them out naturally over time. I think prosecuting the consumer directly is too much of a slippery slope to go down. Because like it or not almost everything we do in modern society has some pretty nasty externalities attached that are also so far removed from the consumer that they can't reasonably be expected to factor it into their decisions.
mike_d 3y ago
> Where the argument loses me is that I simply don't believe that the demand in any way causes people to become rapists just to produce content. Consumers trade material with each other, and a high value is placed on original or custom content - which in turn leads them into finding victims so they can become producers. It is absolutely vile and consumption does lead directly to abuse.
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
  I don't buy your implication that the production of content is somehow the prime motivator for abusers, and not simply the primal desire for sex along with either a complete lack of compassion or a deeply disturbed understanding of human relationships and complete lack of impulse control. I think the main motivation for filming it is probably just the same as most people who make their own sex tapes. To watch again later. In any case, I already pointed out that there are gradations here, and you didn't address any of those points.

1827163 3y ago

Yes, as a thought experiment, maybe we should prosecute those who purchase eggs, even free range ones, from so called 'ethical' farms, for animal abuse? Each hen lays 600 eggs in its lifespan [1]. For every hen there was a male chick that was shredded alive in a macerator in the hatchery [2,3]. The link between abuse and consumption is concrete in this case. Buying more eggs requires the farm to raise more hens, which causes more male chicks to be shredded. There is a direct supplier and customer here, and money is clearly transferred. So the average person consumes 277 eggs per year [4], that means approximately every 2 years, we all shred a male chick alive, by proxy. And by using the same argument as for the illegal pornography, we should be going to jail for animal abuse? 1. https://backyardpoultry.iamcountryside.com/chickens-101/how-long-do-chickens-lay-eggs-breeds-that-go-the-extra-mile/ https://backyardpoultry.iamcountryside.com/chickens-101/how-... 2. https://thehumaneleague.org.uk/article/what-happens-to-male-chicks-in-the-egg-industry https://thehumaneleague.org.uk/article/what-happens-to-male-... 3. https://demeter.net/chick-culling/ https://demeter.net/chick-culling/ 4. https://www.statista.com/statistics/183678/per-capita-consumption-of-eggs-in-the-us-since-2000/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/183678/per-capita-consum... With illegal pornography, which is information, and can be copied effortlessly at zero cost, and when no money is transferred, the link between consumption and abuse is much less clear. In fact most of those images are distributed for free, so I guess it's pirated illegal pornography that people are viewing then? That hardly makes a direct case for increasing the production of such images?

mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
I think in general some externalities should be banned at the source, i.e macerating male chicks en masse should just be illegal(I'm not a huge animal rights person in general, but this one seems clear cut to me). Whereas others that can't just stop overnight(say carbon emissions) should be taxed at the source to phase them out naturally over time. I think prosecuting the consumer directly is too much of a slippery slope to go down. Because like it or not almost everything we do in modern society has some pretty nasty externalities attached that are also so far removed from the consumer that they can't reasonably be expected to factor it into their decisions.

mike_d 3y ago

> Where the argument loses me is that I simply don't believe that the demand in any way causes people to become rapists just to produce content. Consumers trade material with each other, and a high value is placed on original or custom content - which in turn leads them into finding victims so they can become producers. It is absolutely vile and consumption does lead directly to abuse.

mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
I don't buy your implication that the production of content is somehow the prime motivator for abusers, and not simply the primal desire for sex along with either a complete lack of compassion or a deeply disturbed understanding of human relationships and complete lack of impulse control. I think the main motivation for filming it is probably just the same as most people who make their own sex tapes. To watch again later. In any case, I already pointed out that there are gradations here, and you didn't address any of those points.