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$3k+ is exactly the right price point. A customer cannot be disappointed from a product they don't buy. And the type of enthusiast who spends 3k+ on it, will be

by screye 3y ago

$3k+ is exactly the right price point. A customer cannot be disappointed from a product they don't buy. And the type of enthusiast who spends 3k+ on it, will be satisfied before they even wear it. At 3k+ it will likely be the unchallenged top headset on the market, and that alone will mean that tech nerds will be raving over it. > where are the apps going to come from? Gaming whales exist. Enterprise customers exist. Microsoft got a $2b from the DOD for building the holo-lens 2 at tech demo levels of product quality. IMO, VR is 1 UX breakthrough away from finding a money-generating niche. And UX breakthrough/popularization is Apple's bread and butter.

twoodfin 3y ago
Agree, and would add that “apps” is likely the wrong mindset: This thing is going to be all about experiences. Yoga on the beach. Standing on the pitch during Ted Lasso. Watching the Apollo moon landing from the surface of Tranquility Base. Either they have the immersion and UI model that makes this kind of content viscerally “wow”, or they don’t have a product. I’m guessing they have a product.
- hnaccount_rng 3y ago
  I had that visceral “wow” while reading your post. I’m not saying that’s what they’ll do. But that _is_ one way of leveraging the content/IP from TV+ and could serve as an impressive demonstration which is fun to work on.
  - twoodfin 3y ago
    … and Fitness+, Arcade, Music, … This platform, if it works, will supercharge the value of their service offerings.
- anonymouse008 3y ago
  Have you ever been to a live action theater and dinner thing? Like Tony and Tina’s wedding and the lion king - it’s corny as hell and meant to be consumed in small doses.
- saiya-jin 3y ago
  I am guessing they don't, if we use your metrics. I do get that discussing here are mostly US fanboys, so facts are hard to actually discuss rationally, but Apple made flops in the past, and underwhelming hardware and software they initially presented as second coming of Jesus. VR is hard, sorry hard even for companies that had decade headstart and similar budgets and talents available to Apple. It may actually help them if people have more realistic expectations than presented here, since its not possible it will be a perfect product from gen 1, day 1. Not even Apple ever achieved any of that on any sophisticated product. Since there are so many sub-categories in VR to compete in (home cinema, overall immersion, raw resolution, couch/room experience, controllers, comfort, virtual huge desktop, sound quality and so on and on) people should be realistic. And also expect to wait few years to have 3rd party software fully utilizing HW. Price point should not drive expectations, Apple often gives upmark on its products compared to competition. We shall see soon.
  - oceanplexian 3y ago
    Honestly the tech has stagnated for the last few years, with VR headsets actually getting crappier, (Meta Quest Pro is slightly better than 1080p?) I hope Apple lights a fire under them, it's 2023 the technology could be a LOT better. VR is one of those things where it either works perfectly or it's a failure, you need super high refresh rates, high resolution, and software to get a certain level of immersion that tricks your brain into believing it's real.
    - trafficante 3y ago
      > Meta Quest Pro is slightly better than 1080p? The Pro is sort of an aberration. Pixels per degree are actually higher than the Quest 2, but the panel resolution itself is slightly less (and the MiniLED tech is far superior to the regular LCD panel). The big upgrade was with the pancake optics, which are actually quite a leap forward. Meta should have put the product on ice until Qualcomm had XR2 Gen 2 SoCs available. They couldn’t bump the panel resolution because of the SoC. Hell, even the extremely overengineered Touch Pro controllers only exist as an artifact of the XR2 not supporting enough cameras to do face/eye tracking while still having cameras available for SLAM tracking.
- makeitdouble 3y ago
  These "experiences" are visceral but also very short lived and weirdly frustrating for many (most ?) people. I look at it the same we look at paintings. Some pieces are truely mindblowing, speak to your soul and you could look at them everyday for next decades without getting bored...or not. I think for most people even the most impacting piece becomes a wallpaper pattern after the fifth time they stared at it for 5 min. They might revisit it once in a while, at most. For a headset, that mostly means it's played with for 30 min the first time and stays in a closet for the rest of its life. You forget about it and don't get a chance to get revisited. So yes, experiences could be wonderful, but it also needs apps that bring you back to the device on a regular basis to help the ecosystem stay alive. (the other weird part: the more realistic and visceral the experience is, the more you get greedy and ask for more. Except there's nothing beyond. You'll be looking at that moon landing, wishing to move forward to look closer, except it will be clunky if even possible. And you're reminded that yes, it's "just" virtual, and technology and content is not ready yet)
wnevets 3y ago
> $3k+ is exactly the right price point. A customer cannot be disappointed from a product they don't buy. And the type of enthusiast who spends 3k+ on it, will be satisfied before they even wear it. I think you're absolutely right. I think a similar example of this is the RTX 4090. Everyone complains about the price, the power usage, how it's overkill for 99.99% of the population but it's constantly sold out. I doubt anyone who owns one is really disappointed
- Hamuko 3y ago
  I can definitely find an RTX 4090 in stock and even under its 1819€ MSRP.
  - wnevets 3y ago
    Yeah it looks like AIB cards are in stock these days.
- donmcronald 3y ago
  > I think a similar example of this is the RTX 4090. I’m not sure. With video cards those gamer whales can crush all the lesser card owners after they buy some power via MTX. Then they can convince themselves it’s skill based, not money based. With a $3k headset in a closed ecosystem they’ll be playing amongst themselves and they won’t get the same level of reward (aka crushing “noobs”) that they’re able to buy in a more mainstream market. I don’t know a single person, including friends of friends, that would buy any VR headset let alone one that costs $3k. The price point needs to come down a ton and typically adoption of tech like that comes from younger generations that have exactly zero money these days, so I predict massive flops from everyone because I don’t think the economics are going to work.
  - wnevets 3y ago
    > With video cards those gamer whales can crush all the lesser card owners after they buy some power via MTX. Are there a lot games where a 4090 owner would have a meaningful advantage over an 3060 owner in a competitive environment?

by screye 3y ago

twoodfin 3y ago

Agree, and would add that “apps” is likely the wrong mindset: This thing is going to be all about experiences. Yoga on the beach. Standing on the pitch during Ted Lasso. Watching the Apollo moon landing from the surface of Tranquility Base. Either they have the immersion and UI model that makes this kind of content viscerally “wow”, or they don’t have a product. I’m guessing they have a product.

hnaccount_rng 3y ago
I had that visceral “wow” while reading your post. I’m not saying that’s what they’ll do. But that _is_ one way of leveraging the content/IP from TV+ and could serve as an impressive demonstration which is fun to work on.
- twoodfin 3y ago
  … and Fitness+, Arcade, Music, … This platform, if it works, will supercharge the value of their service offerings.
anonymouse008 3y ago
Have you ever been to a live action theater and dinner thing? Like Tony and Tina’s wedding and the lion king - it’s corny as hell and meant to be consumed in small doses.
saiya-jin 3y ago
I am guessing they don't, if we use your metrics. I do get that discussing here are mostly US fanboys, so facts are hard to actually discuss rationally, but Apple made flops in the past, and underwhelming hardware and software they initially presented as second coming of Jesus. VR is hard, sorry hard even for companies that had decade headstart and similar budgets and talents available to Apple. It may actually help them if people have more realistic expectations than presented here, since its not possible it will be a perfect product from gen 1, day 1. Not even Apple ever achieved any of that on any sophisticated product. Since there are so many sub-categories in VR to compete in (home cinema, overall immersion, raw resolution, couch/room experience, controllers, comfort, virtual huge desktop, sound quality and so on and on) people should be realistic. And also expect to wait few years to have 3rd party software fully utilizing HW. Price point should not drive expectations, Apple often gives upmark on its products compared to competition. We shall see soon.
- oceanplexian 3y ago
  Honestly the tech has stagnated for the last few years, with VR headsets actually getting crappier, (Meta Quest Pro is slightly better than 1080p?) I hope Apple lights a fire under them, it's 2023 the technology could be a LOT better. VR is one of those things where it either works perfectly or it's a failure, you need super high refresh rates, high resolution, and software to get a certain level of immersion that tricks your brain into believing it's real.
  - trafficante 3y ago
    > Meta Quest Pro is slightly better than 1080p? The Pro is sort of an aberration. Pixels per degree are actually higher than the Quest 2, but the panel resolution itself is slightly less (and the MiniLED tech is far superior to the regular LCD panel). The big upgrade was with the pancake optics, which are actually quite a leap forward. Meta should have put the product on ice until Qualcomm had XR2 Gen 2 SoCs available. They couldn’t bump the panel resolution because of the SoC. Hell, even the extremely overengineered Touch Pro controllers only exist as an artifact of the XR2 not supporting enough cameras to do face/eye tracking while still having cameras available for SLAM tracking.
makeitdouble 3y ago
These "experiences" are visceral but also very short lived and weirdly frustrating for many (most ?) people. I look at it the same we look at paintings. Some pieces are truely mindblowing, speak to your soul and you could look at them everyday for next decades without getting bored...or not. I think for most people even the most impacting piece becomes a wallpaper pattern after the fifth time they stared at it for 5 min. They might revisit it once in a while, at most. For a headset, that mostly means it's played with for 30 min the first time and stays in a closet for the rest of its life. You forget about it and don't get a chance to get revisited. So yes, experiences could be wonderful, but it also needs apps that bring you back to the device on a regular basis to help the ecosystem stay alive. (the other weird part: the more realistic and visceral the experience is, the more you get greedy and ask for more. Except there's nothing beyond. You'll be looking at that moon landing, wishing to move forward to look closer, except it will be clunky if even possible. And you're reminded that yes, it's "just" virtual, and technology and content is not ready yet)

wnevets 3y ago

> $3k+ is exactly the right price point. A customer cannot be disappointed from a product they don't buy. And the type of enthusiast who spends 3k+ on it, will be satisfied before they even wear it. I think you're absolutely right. I think a similar example of this is the RTX 4090. Everyone complains about the price, the power usage, how it's overkill for 99.99% of the population but it's constantly sold out. I doubt anyone who owns one is really disappointed

Hamuko 3y ago
I can definitely find an RTX 4090 in stock and even under its 1819€ MSRP.
- wnevets 3y ago
  Yeah it looks like AIB cards are in stock these days.
donmcronald 3y ago
> I think a similar example of this is the RTX 4090. I’m not sure. With video cards those gamer whales can crush all the lesser card owners after they buy some power via MTX. Then they can convince themselves it’s skill based, not money based. With a $3k headset in a closed ecosystem they’ll be playing amongst themselves and they won’t get the same level of reward (aka crushing “noobs”) that they’re able to buy in a more mainstream market. I don’t know a single person, including friends of friends, that would buy any VR headset let alone one that costs $3k. The price point needs to come down a ton and typically adoption of tech like that comes from younger generations that have exactly zero money these days, so I predict massive flops from everyone because I don’t think the economics are going to work.
- wnevets 3y ago
  > With video cards those gamer whales can crush all the lesser card owners after they buy some power via MTX. Are there a lot games where a 4090 owner would have a meaningful advantage over an 3060 owner in a competitive environment?