4 ms·

> But here's the thing, why aren't value and meaning aligned? Don't we want to value and pay for things we find meaningful? Under capitalist systems, the only

> But here's the thing, why aren't value and meaning aligned? Don't we want to value and pay for things we find meaningful? Under capitalist systems, the only way to align value and meaning is for meaning to be profitable. If you can't make a buck off it, then what's the point of doing it?

swayvil 3y ago
We are cerebral mammals. The crown of creation. But our society forces us to imitate the lowest creatures : Viruses. Insects. Funny.
- mrangle 3y ago
  The intellect(God-adjacent) / animal dichotomy within humans and their condition is a an old embedded quandry of theology.
- ModernMech 3y ago
  Imo, insects are the only creatures with societies rivaling the size and complexity of ours. Ants cultivate plants, maintain nurseries, execute emergency response protocols when disasters hit, conduct expeditions to find new food sources, cooperate to complete tasks etc.
pauldenton 3y ago
And what about in non capitalist systems. How is the software industry in North Korea?
s1artibartfast 3y ago
I live in a capitalist country, and still have sex with my wife despite nobody paying me. Capitalism is a model and framework for economic interaction. It says nothing about what people enjoy and find meaningful.
- ModernMech 3y ago
  I’m not sure I see the point of you telling me that you have sex with your wife. We are talking about aligning value and meaning. Edit: since I’m rate limited now and I don’t really intend to come back to this discussion later, I’ll leave my reply to you here and leave it at that: Okay, but you could have done that without bringing your personal sex life into the discussion. Either way, that you have sex with your wife doesn’t say anything about the alignment or misalignment of value and meaning in capitalist societies. It’s perfectly possible for you to have meaningful sex with your wife, and for that to not be encouraged by capitalism as a valuable activity. In fact, in America there’s an issue with birthrates because younger generations cannot afford families, healthcare and education, but we make sure they can get cheap loans for cars and TVs are affordable. That’s the misalignment I’m talking about. Have a good one and please leave your personal sex life out of future comments. I’m sure you can find another relatable way to frame your point.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    The point is to demonstrate a clear and relatable example of something the vast majority of humans doing without making a buck off of it. In fact, people will spend money to do it where it is legal. It's unclear to me why you think economics should be about aligning value and worker meaning at all. Another way to think about it is that the capitalist system does a great job of aligning value and meaning, just on the consumer side and not the producer side. Compensation is based on what meaning someone else finds in your work and will pay you for it. It seems rather silly to have a system where workers are compensated for work they find meaningful but no one else does.
    - medvezhenok 3y ago
      Capitalist systems also don't have a great way of measuring value that doesn't include a monetary exchange. For example - if I fix my neighbor's computer, and he gives me a dozen eggs from his chickens, we've exchanged tangible value (we've both benefitted from the exchange), but under a capitalist system, the value of that exchange was unmeasurable (since no money changed hands). You could convert it to a market rate analysis, but that mostly never happens. Similarly, if a parent stays at home and takes care of the kids - that's economic value. But it will only show up in the statistics if the parent takes care of someone else's kids and hires someone to take care of their own (since that's economic exchange). One trend of capitalism was taking a lot of this "implicit" or off-balance-sheet value creation and making it explicit.
jemmyw 3y ago
Because it's enjoyable? A lot of what people do is for enjoyment. Many times someone else can profit from that, but the underlying motivation of the demand is not money.

swayvil 3y ago

We are cerebral mammals. The crown of creation. But our society forces us to imitate the lowest creatures : Viruses. Insects. Funny.

mrangle 3y ago
The intellect(God-adjacent) / animal dichotomy within humans and their condition is a an old embedded quandry of theology.
ModernMech 3y ago
Imo, insects are the only creatures with societies rivaling the size and complexity of ours. Ants cultivate plants, maintain nurseries, execute emergency response protocols when disasters hit, conduct expeditions to find new food sources, cooperate to complete tasks etc.

pauldenton 3y ago

And what about in non capitalist systems. How is the software industry in North Korea?

s1artibartfast 3y ago

I live in a capitalist country, and still have sex with my wife despite nobody paying me. Capitalism is a model and framework for economic interaction. It says nothing about what people enjoy and find meaningful.

ModernMech 3y ago
I’m not sure I see the point of you telling me that you have sex with your wife. We are talking about aligning value and meaning. Edit: since I’m rate limited now and I don’t really intend to come back to this discussion later, I’ll leave my reply to you here and leave it at that: Okay, but you could have done that without bringing your personal sex life into the discussion. Either way, that you have sex with your wife doesn’t say anything about the alignment or misalignment of value and meaning in capitalist societies. It’s perfectly possible for you to have meaningful sex with your wife, and for that to not be encouraged by capitalism as a valuable activity. In fact, in America there’s an issue with birthrates because younger generations cannot afford families, healthcare and education, but we make sure they can get cheap loans for cars and TVs are affordable. That’s the misalignment I’m talking about. Have a good one and please leave your personal sex life out of future comments. I’m sure you can find another relatable way to frame your point.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  The point is to demonstrate a clear and relatable example of something the vast majority of humans doing without making a buck off of it. In fact, people will spend money to do it where it is legal. It's unclear to me why you think economics should be about aligning value and worker meaning at all. Another way to think about it is that the capitalist system does a great job of aligning value and meaning, just on the consumer side and not the producer side. Compensation is based on what meaning someone else finds in your work and will pay you for it. It seems rather silly to have a system where workers are compensated for work they find meaningful but no one else does.
  - medvezhenok 3y ago
    Capitalist systems also don't have a great way of measuring value that doesn't include a monetary exchange. For example - if I fix my neighbor's computer, and he gives me a dozen eggs from his chickens, we've exchanged tangible value (we've both benefitted from the exchange), but under a capitalist system, the value of that exchange was unmeasurable (since no money changed hands). You could convert it to a market rate analysis, but that mostly never happens. Similarly, if a parent stays at home and takes care of the kids - that's economic value. But it will only show up in the statistics if the parent takes care of someone else's kids and hires someone to take care of their own (since that's economic exchange). One trend of capitalism was taking a lot of this "implicit" or off-balance-sheet value creation and making it explicit.

jemmyw 3y ago

Because it's enjoyable? A lot of what people do is for enjoyment. Many times someone else can profit from that, but the underlying motivation of the demand is not money.