4 ms·

Mech KBs are nice but I am always puzzled why nobody discusses what I think is the biggest unsolved problem with any keyboard: the Mouse ! Let me elaborate — o

Mech KBs are nice but I am always puzzled why nobody discusses what I think is the biggest unsolved problem with any keyboard: the Mouse ! Let me elaborate — on a laptop computer (esp MacBook ) the nicest thing is that we don’t have to reach for a mouse, and we use the trackpad with either thumb. With an external keyboard, the ergonomics are great EXCEPT that you have to move your hand off the KB to get to a mouse. For me that kills the ergonomics! If someone designs a combo mech kb with an easily reachable trackpad below the thumbs, that would be amazing.

motiejus 3y ago
That's why I use Lenovo keyboards. They have this amazing red thing in the middle of the keyboard. You can't ask more than that.
- TylerE 3y ago
  It could never get on with those, as it’s exactly the kind of micro-movement I have trouble with.
bjoli 3y ago
https://www.posturite.co.uk/contour-rollermouse-free3 https://www.posturite.co.uk/contour-rollermouse-free3 maybe? If you like it you like it. I used a trackball with a 75% (the best %) and an external numpad that I put the left of my kB. I use my mouse very little, so it wasn't much of a context switch.
zokier 3y ago
Integrating pointer devices into keyboards is definitely a thing for ergo community. Even this design has trackball support! > It supports a per key RGB matrix, encoders, OLED displays, haptic feedback, speakers, a Pixart Paw3204 trackball, the SplitKB tenting puck and four different layouts, through break off parts.
7839284023 3y ago
Have a look at the [1] Dilemma with build in thumb touchpad or the [2] Charybdis with build in thumb trackball. [1] https://bastardkb.com/product/dilemma/ https://bastardkb.com/product/dilemma/ [2] https://bastardkb.com/charybdis/ https://bastardkb.com/charybdis/
- yewenjie 3y ago
  I have been using Corne since last year and want to switch to Dilemma - it really seems like a great option. I wonder if anyone has found any drawbacks against it? If not I am going to buy the Dilemma this week.
  - iterati 3y ago
    I'm torn on the Dilemma being my next because I currently still use my pinkys for double quote and quote. The 40 key layout here was what I was considering designing for myself but I'm not a fan of the inner-index offset. The Dilemma is a sweet design so I might just tweak it instead of starting from scratch, but starting from scratch would be more fun.
- pixelbreaker 3y ago
  I built a Charybdis Nano, it's amazing. Never going back.
- d4rkp4ttern 3y ago
  Thanks for this pointer. Just three key rows is a bit extreme for me :)
2023throwawayy 3y ago
I use the UHK. [1] It offers programmable key layers, including a mouse key layer. That combined with apps like Shortcat [2] and I haven’t needed an actual mouse or trackpad in months. That said, UHK offers thumb track pad and track ball modules if you just can’t give it up. [1] https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/ https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/ [2] https://shortcat.app/ https://shortcat.app/
- d4rkp4ttern 3y ago
  UHK looks amazing, thanks. Pricy, though, and I have to see about losing the Function key row.
  - 2023throwawayy 3y ago
    Function keys are still accessible on a mod layer. Pricy sure, but really great build quality. Except the plastic feet. Buy extras, they will break.
    - d4rkp4ttern 3y ago
      Just ordered it ! I have to get ready to lose $100 on shipping costs back and forth to the US in case I have to return in 2 weeks. I am returning keychron S1 I recently ordered from Amazon. I’ve the years every now and then I try out mech kbs to ease my RSI (shoulder) issues and nothing stuck and I kept going back to MacBook just because of the convenience of the trackpad between the fingers. I will see if the UHK is a keeper :)
  - ThrowawayR2 3y ago
    The UHK is moderately annoying if you frequently need to do chorded combinations that involve the escape key, function keys, or cursor control keys. Since you have to access those keys through an modifier key, the chord you need to hit requires adding that key. You can work around it to some extent with macros and key remapping but it still makes me wish I had a third hand. I like the UHK in terms of build quality and functionality but it would be much, much better if it were a 75% layout instead of a 60% layout.
yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
I mostly mitigate this in software; mostly workflow changes (I mostly live in a terminal) and then keynav for most of the rest.
MetaWhirledPeas 3y ago
If you browse Reddit's /r/olkb subreddit regularly you'll occasionally see people integrating touchpads, joysticks, and trackballs into their keyboards (usually the split variety like the one pictured).
robomartin 3y ago
People forget that Apple's first laptop had a trackball, not a touchpad: https://www.macworld.com/article/229228/the-evolution-of-apples-laptops-from-the-powerbook-to-the-macbook-pro.html https://www.macworld.com/article/229228/the-evolution-of-app... There was also a laptop with this mouse "thing" that pulled out of the right side. Not Apple, I can't remember who made it. Keyboards with integrated mice, trackballs and touchpads have been done a million times. You can buy them today in many forms (switch to image search to see the options): https://www.google.com/search?q=keyboard+with+integrated+mouse https://www.google.com/search?q=keyboard+with+integrated+mou... That said, trackpads are horrible things. They exist because they are massively cheaper to integrate into laptops than trackballs or having to ship something like a docking mouse, etc. They also reduce mechanical complexity and likely less issues on many other fronts. In other words, trackpads are a huge win for manufacturers and a massive UI/UX loss for users. Sure, for occasional browsing or low intensity tasks, no problem. Anything works. The little pointing gizmo on my Lenovo is there for when I have no other option. However, for anything that requires some level of complexity or performance on quickly learns trackpads just don't work. For me this means CAD, coding, applications like Excel, graphics work, etc. I use a thumb-operated trackball, have been doing so for decades. If I was forced to use a trackpad every day and had no other choice I would take a sledge hammer to the computer...that's no way to live. I would imagine gamers have a similar opinion. I used to play games like Doom and Duke Nukem bak in the day. My performance using a trackball, when compared to others using mice of the era was just impossible to beat.

motiejus 3y ago

That's why I use Lenovo keyboards. They have this amazing red thing in the middle of the keyboard. You can't ask more than that.

TylerE 3y ago
It could never get on with those, as it’s exactly the kind of micro-movement I have trouble with.

bjoli 3y ago

https://www.posturite.co.uk/contour-rollermouse-free3 https://www.posturite.co.uk/contour-rollermouse-free3 maybe? If you like it you like it. I used a trackball with a 75% (the best %) and an external numpad that I put the left of my kB. I use my mouse very little, so it wasn't much of a context switch.

zokier 3y ago

Integrating pointer devices into keyboards is definitely a thing for ergo community. Even this design has trackball support! > It supports a per key RGB matrix, encoders, OLED displays, haptic feedback, speakers, a Pixart Paw3204 trackball, the SplitKB tenting puck and four different layouts, through break off parts.

7839284023 3y ago

Have a look at the [1] Dilemma with build in thumb touchpad or the [2] Charybdis with build in thumb trackball. [1] https://bastardkb.com/product/dilemma/ https://bastardkb.com/product/dilemma/ [2] https://bastardkb.com/charybdis/ https://bastardkb.com/charybdis/

yewenjie 3y ago
I have been using Corne since last year and want to switch to Dilemma - it really seems like a great option. I wonder if anyone has found any drawbacks against it? If not I am going to buy the Dilemma this week.
- iterati 3y ago
  I'm torn on the Dilemma being my next because I currently still use my pinkys for double quote and quote. The 40 key layout here was what I was considering designing for myself but I'm not a fan of the inner-index offset. The Dilemma is a sweet design so I might just tweak it instead of starting from scratch, but starting from scratch would be more fun.
pixelbreaker 3y ago
I built a Charybdis Nano, it's amazing. Never going back.
d4rkp4ttern 3y ago
Thanks for this pointer. Just three key rows is a bit extreme for me :)

2023throwawayy 3y ago

I use the UHK. [1] It offers programmable key layers, including a mouse key layer. That combined with apps like Shortcat [2] and I haven’t needed an actual mouse or trackpad in months. That said, UHK offers thumb track pad and track ball modules if you just can’t give it up. [1] https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/ https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/ [2] https://shortcat.app/ https://shortcat.app/

d4rkp4ttern 3y ago
UHK looks amazing, thanks. Pricy, though, and I have to see about losing the Function key row.
- 2023throwawayy 3y ago
  Function keys are still accessible on a mod layer. Pricy sure, but really great build quality. Except the plastic feet. Buy extras, they will break.
  - d4rkp4ttern 3y ago
    Just ordered it ! I have to get ready to lose $100 on shipping costs back and forth to the US in case I have to return in 2 weeks. I am returning keychron S1 I recently ordered from Amazon. I’ve the years every now and then I try out mech kbs to ease my RSI (shoulder) issues and nothing stuck and I kept going back to MacBook just because of the convenience of the trackpad between the fingers. I will see if the UHK is a keeper :)
- ThrowawayR2 3y ago
  The UHK is moderately annoying if you frequently need to do chorded combinations that involve the escape key, function keys, or cursor control keys. Since you have to access those keys through an modifier key, the chord you need to hit requires adding that key. You can work around it to some extent with macros and key remapping but it still makes me wish I had a third hand. I like the UHK in terms of build quality and functionality but it would be much, much better if it were a 75% layout instead of a 60% layout.

yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago

I mostly mitigate this in software; mostly workflow changes (I mostly live in a terminal) and then keynav for most of the rest.

MetaWhirledPeas 3y ago

If you browse Reddit's /r/olkb subreddit regularly you'll occasionally see people integrating touchpads, joysticks, and trackballs into their keyboards (usually the split variety like the one pictured).

robomartin 3y ago

People forget that Apple's first laptop had a trackball, not a touchpad: https://www.macworld.com/article/229228/the-evolution-of-apples-laptops-from-the-powerbook-to-the-macbook-pro.html https://www.macworld.com/article/229228/the-evolution-of-app... There was also a laptop with this mouse "thing" that pulled out of the right side. Not Apple, I can't remember who made it. Keyboards with integrated mice, trackballs and touchpads have been done a million times. You can buy them today in many forms (switch to image search to see the options): https://www.google.com/search?q=keyboard+with+integrated+mouse https://www.google.com/search?q=keyboard+with+integrated+mou... That said, trackpads are horrible things. They exist because they are massively cheaper to integrate into laptops than trackballs or having to ship something like a docking mouse, etc. They also reduce mechanical complexity and likely less issues on many other fronts. In other words, trackpads are a huge win for manufacturers and a massive UI/UX loss for users. Sure, for occasional browsing or low intensity tasks, no problem. Anything works. The little pointing gizmo on my Lenovo is there for when I have no other option. However, for anything that requires some level of complexity or performance on quickly learns trackpads just don't work. For me this means CAD, coding, applications like Excel, graphics work, etc. I use a thumb-operated trackball, have been doing so for decades. If I was forced to use a trackpad every day and had no other choice I would take a sledge hammer to the computer...that's no way to live. I would imagine gamers have a similar opinion. I used to play games like Doom and Duke Nukem bak in the day. My performance using a trackball, when compared to others using mice of the era was just impossible to beat.