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> most of the growth goes to very few people Do you have running water? A sewage system? Mass produced cheap clothes? Access to meat every day from an average

by zpeti 3y ago

> most of the growth goes to very few people Do you have running water? A sewage system? Mass produced cheap clothes? Access to meat every day from an average salary? A smartphone? Access to the world information? Access to all the music ever produced for $10 a month? What you are saying is simply not true. It appears true when you look at inequality but any technological development always benefits almost everyone. And some win a lot, but many win even more.

sokoloff 3y ago
Almost all of us in the West are living more comfortable (and generally longer) lives than a king from 200 years ago.
- ownagefool 3y ago
  Mostly yes, but I imagine in some respects no: - Car, noise, light and general pollution. - Access to space and land. - Privacy & and in some respects freedom. In lots of respects our life's are more comfortable, but I don't think having an iPhone makes up for having a generation that'll never get on the housing market in the UK for example.
  - hourago 3y ago
    > In lots of respects our life's are more comfortable, but I don't think having an iPhone makes up for having a generation that'll never get on the housing market in the UK for example. You are more right that your comment. That iPhone is being used to show you more ads, track you, show you low-quality content that appeals to basic emotions... technology can make our lives better but it can also make them worse. It is neutral.
hourago 3y ago
> It appears true when you look at inequality but any technological development always benefits almost everyone. Less inequality will create opportunities for better education for millions if not billions of humans. That will improve technology in ways that just producing more stuff will not. I do not think that to tie increased consumption with better technology is true. Most of what we produce is low tech stuff like fast fashion. I will argue that producing less and having more time for leisure will also increase scientific output. So, economic growth is not the same that technological advance. And that is one of the points of the "lefty Europeans": economy measurements are not tied to human advancement and well being but just money.
- mijamo 3y ago
  Economic growth is also not linked to resources use. You can have growth while using less resources, or shrink the economy while using less. This is why the whole movement has always felt weird to me. You can have forever growth while using 0 resources and lowering consumption, because as you say growth is a monetary phenomenon.
  - hourago 3y ago
    > You can have forever growth while using 0 resources and lowering consumption, because as you say growth is a monetary phenomenon. So, at least we agree that GDP is a bad measure and we need to come up with something better that takes into account more things that just amount of money.

by zpeti 3y ago

sokoloff 3y ago

Almost all of us in the West are living more comfortable (and generally longer) lives than a king from 200 years ago.

ownagefool 3y ago
Mostly yes, but I imagine in some respects no: - Car, noise, light and general pollution. - Access to space and land. - Privacy & and in some respects freedom. In lots of respects our life's are more comfortable, but I don't think having an iPhone makes up for having a generation that'll never get on the housing market in the UK for example.
- hourago 3y ago
  > In lots of respects our life's are more comfortable, but I don't think having an iPhone makes up for having a generation that'll never get on the housing market in the UK for example. You are more right that your comment. That iPhone is being used to show you more ads, track you, show you low-quality content that appeals to basic emotions... technology can make our lives better but it can also make them worse. It is neutral.

hourago 3y ago

> It appears true when you look at inequality but any technological development always benefits almost everyone. Less inequality will create opportunities for better education for millions if not billions of humans. That will improve technology in ways that just producing more stuff will not. I do not think that to tie increased consumption with better technology is true. Most of what we produce is low tech stuff like fast fashion. I will argue that producing less and having more time for leisure will also increase scientific output. So, economic growth is not the same that technological advance. And that is one of the points of the "lefty Europeans": economy measurements are not tied to human advancement and well being but just money.

mijamo 3y ago
Economic growth is also not linked to resources use. You can have growth while using less resources, or shrink the economy while using less. This is why the whole movement has always felt weird to me. You can have forever growth while using 0 resources and lowering consumption, because as you say growth is a monetary phenomenon.
- hourago 3y ago
  > You can have forever growth while using 0 resources and lowering consumption, because as you say growth is a monetary phenomenon. So, at least we agree that GDP is a bad measure and we need to come up with something better that takes into account more things that just amount of money.