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Sure, it's possible for someone who went to war and ended up killing a family of civilians to recover, overcome and lead happy and fulfilled lives henceforth. D

Sure, it's possible for someone who went to war and ended up killing a family of civilians to recover, overcome and lead happy and fulfilled lives henceforth. Does it mean that another soldier struggling with constant guilt and nightmares is defective and in the need of fixing? Our justice system imposes death penalty for murder. What if someone is truly convinced, on rational bases, that they have committed a murder, but in the circumstances where justice doesn't act? Are they acting insane by taking a matter in their own hands? Now let's take another person who NEEDS to be surrounded by love and belonging and ends up estranged from family and devoid of friends, living alone in an apartment at the age of 50? Are you suggesting that this person needs to be fixed to not intensely crave those things? Or that efforts to build these up at their age are likely to be successful in today's society? Just what physical, emotional and financial resources is anyone else willing to contribute towards this person's well-being, other than pumping them full of numbing drugs?

ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
> Or that efforts to build these up at their age are likely to be successful in today's society? I've seen that happen -literally- hundreds, if not thousands, of times. It's usually difficult. Like, really difficult, but sometimes, it's well worth the effort. We can often help each other through the rough bits. I've known a few folks that have done pretty awful things (not getting into detail), and have recovered. Many, work hard to help others to recover. Love, charity, empathy, and generosity are very powerful. There was a book written by Richard Adams (Watership Down), called Shardik[0]. It's about redemption. Sort of like the Ashoka myth[1]. Not a unique trope. It's never too late to recover. In many cases, we may not climb "as high" as we once were, but are much happier. In other cases, it's the opposite. I know a chap that wanted to put the park bench he slept on, in the garden of his mansion. He couldn't find it, though, as the city had replaced them, by that time. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shardik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shardik [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka
- cat_plus_plus 3y ago
  Oh sure, I know people have rebuilt their lives in 50s. But there is luck and anecdotes and there is prevailing reality. When something is difficult, it requires physical and emotional stamina to overcome. At some point, one may be unable to handle hundreds of rejections after trying to make a single casual friend in a space of years. Not lazy, or insufficiently motivated, just not able to, period. And that assumes, for example, enough financial independence and free time from work to try in the first place. I am not ready to declare people who give up defective or put all the responsibility at their feet, rather than society in general or plain bad luck.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
    Well, I can only speak for myself, and for those in my peer group, but we regularly help each other to rebuild our lives. It takes a community. It's not usually something we can do, on our own. Long story, and not one for press, radio, and film.
s1artibartfast 3y ago
My point is pretty simple. It is that the critical differences are on the inside, not on the outside. I wasn't taking a position on what people should do with this information, but I think that understanding the fact is important if you want to change anything, or simply understand how the world works. In the context of depression, I think it is up to the individual if they want to change. In your example, the relevant question is if the lonely 50 year old wants to change. As long as they aren't hurting me, I am fine with them choosing either option. What, if anything, I am willing to do the help, would depend on if or how much I care for the individual. What do you think about your questions? It seems like you have on opinion you aren't stating.
- cat_plus_plus 3y ago
  My opinion is that in the end I don't think really wanting a change is enough for most people in sad social circumstances. They simply do not have the stamina, the skills or the opportunities to get out of the rut. For example, I have a much more modest desire to have a shared hobby with is common and not expensive or difficult to pursue and a group of friends (casual to start with) to go and do that in free time. I have been at it for a year, taking classes, asking classmates and coworkers to join me. Not. A. Single. Luck. Now, I have family, successful career, financial freedom, enough health to be active, no serious character flaws that would tax friendships. Are you telling me a fat and bitter guy who have been living alone long enough to be rusty in social graces is going to suddenly have willing friend material, let alone romantic prospects? Personally I am not going to judge him or say he should have just tried harder. You?
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    >My opinion is that in the end I don't think really wanting a change is enough for most people in sad social circumstances. They simply do not have the stamina, the skills or the opportunities to get out of the rut. I would agree that it often isn't enough by itself. My thinking is more along the the lines that it is a necessary prerequisite, but not always sufficient by itself. Nothing in this life is guaranteed. Im not interested in judging some random stranger. Maybe they should have tried harder, maybe they should have tried something else. Maybe it would have worked, maybe it wouldn't. However, I know if they dont try, then they have no chance. My advice to a friend or someone I cared for would be different. You can't let your happiness be contingent of factors outside your control. If you can't make yourself happy, you are extremely unlikely to find someone or something else to do it for you. If you don't like who you are, then you need to start there because you cant run from yourself. The bad news is that it is your problem to fix, and the good news is that it is your problem to fix. Success is not guaranteed, but these are baseline facts you need to accept if you want to have a chance at change. You cant force someone to be your friend, let alone a romantic partner.

ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago

> Or that efforts to build these up at their age are likely to be successful in today's society? I've seen that happen -literally- hundreds, if not thousands, of times. It's usually difficult. Like, really difficult, but sometimes, it's well worth the effort. We can often help each other through the rough bits. I've known a few folks that have done pretty awful things (not getting into detail), and have recovered. Many, work hard to help others to recover. Love, charity, empathy, and generosity are very powerful. There was a book written by Richard Adams (Watership Down), called Shardik[0]. It's about redemption. Sort of like the Ashoka myth[1]. Not a unique trope. It's never too late to recover. In many cases, we may not climb "as high" as we once were, but are much happier. In other cases, it's the opposite. I know a chap that wanted to put the park bench he slept on, in the garden of his mansion. He couldn't find it, though, as the city had replaced them, by that time. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shardik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shardik [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka

cat_plus_plus 3y ago
Oh sure, I know people have rebuilt their lives in 50s. But there is luck and anecdotes and there is prevailing reality. When something is difficult, it requires physical and emotional stamina to overcome. At some point, one may be unable to handle hundreds of rejections after trying to make a single casual friend in a space of years. Not lazy, or insufficiently motivated, just not able to, period. And that assumes, for example, enough financial independence and free time from work to try in the first place. I am not ready to declare people who give up defective or put all the responsibility at their feet, rather than society in general or plain bad luck.
- ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
  Well, I can only speak for myself, and for those in my peer group, but we regularly help each other to rebuild our lives. It takes a community. It's not usually something we can do, on our own. Long story, and not one for press, radio, and film.

s1artibartfast 3y ago

My point is pretty simple. It is that the critical differences are on the inside, not on the outside. I wasn't taking a position on what people should do with this information, but I think that understanding the fact is important if you want to change anything, or simply understand how the world works. In the context of depression, I think it is up to the individual if they want to change. In your example, the relevant question is if the lonely 50 year old wants to change. As long as they aren't hurting me, I am fine with them choosing either option. What, if anything, I am willing to do the help, would depend on if or how much I care for the individual. What do you think about your questions? It seems like you have on opinion you aren't stating.

cat_plus_plus 3y ago
My opinion is that in the end I don't think really wanting a change is enough for most people in sad social circumstances. They simply do not have the stamina, the skills or the opportunities to get out of the rut. For example, I have a much more modest desire to have a shared hobby with is common and not expensive or difficult to pursue and a group of friends (casual to start with) to go and do that in free time. I have been at it for a year, taking classes, asking classmates and coworkers to join me. Not. A. Single. Luck. Now, I have family, successful career, financial freedom, enough health to be active, no serious character flaws that would tax friendships. Are you telling me a fat and bitter guy who have been living alone long enough to be rusty in social graces is going to suddenly have willing friend material, let alone romantic prospects? Personally I am not going to judge him or say he should have just tried harder. You?
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  >My opinion is that in the end I don't think really wanting a change is enough for most people in sad social circumstances. They simply do not have the stamina, the skills or the opportunities to get out of the rut. I would agree that it often isn't enough by itself. My thinking is more along the the lines that it is a necessary prerequisite, but not always sufficient by itself. Nothing in this life is guaranteed. Im not interested in judging some random stranger. Maybe they should have tried harder, maybe they should have tried something else. Maybe it would have worked, maybe it wouldn't. However, I know if they dont try, then they have no chance. My advice to a friend or someone I cared for would be different. You can't let your happiness be contingent of factors outside your control. If you can't make yourself happy, you are extremely unlikely to find someone or something else to do it for you. If you don't like who you are, then you need to start there because you cant run from yourself. The bad news is that it is your problem to fix, and the good news is that it is your problem to fix. Success is not guaranteed, but these are baseline facts you need to accept if you want to have a chance at change. You cant force someone to be your friend, let alone a romantic partner.