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Thank you for bringing this clarity. And as an Indian citizen I am glad we took this step towards building an independent payments infrastructure, given how cri

Thank you for bringing this clarity. And as an Indian citizen I am glad we took this step towards building an independent payments infrastructure, given how critical a payments clearance system is to the functioning of a modern economy. I don't want other governments to hold us hostage through Visa's and Mastercard's where we are just one sanction away from economic meltdown. Just like what happened recently in Russia. As a country we should be looking at securing other such critical support systems - Power control systems, Telecom hardware etc. That's the only way IMO to be truly independent!

ta7789 3y ago
Absolutely, the US government has a long tradition of weaponizing US Dollar and SWIFT to cut off countries from global trade. This is a fact that has been happening ever since the petrodollar was invented. Governments all over the world, especially India, have realized this is a big vulnerability and a threat to their country's sovereignty. India, Brazil and several countries across the world have invested in their own infrastructure as they rightly should to keep their economic independence. For those who don't know India has been on the receiving end of US sanctions for a variety of reasons. While the reasoning behind the sanctions has been long debated, it is plainly obvious from the Indian vantage point that economic independence is very critical for their survival.
- realityking 3y ago
  > For those who don't know India has been on the receiving end of US sanctions for a variety of reasons. According to wikipedia[0] there‘s only ever been two sanctions against India by the US. A short lived one from 98-99 because of a nuclear ban and a much longer one from 92-2011 related to the space program/missile development. A quick search didn‘t turn up any current US sanctions either. Were there more sanctions or are you referring to these two?
  - ta_vf7xjd34cc 3y ago
    > A quick search didn‘t turn up any current US sanctions either. The US and Indian governments have had bad relations for a long time. The US has the habit of weaponizing anything and everything. While not exactly sanctions, people don't forget things like PL480[1] that easily: > Many of us still have hurtful memories of the mid-'60s when, after two successive years of savage drought, India desperately needed American wheat under the US Public Law 480 on rupee payment — and at relatively low prices because the country had no foreign exchange to buy food in the world market. Indira Gandhi had just become prime minister and chose to go to Washington on an official visit. Lyndon Johnson gave her a gushing welcome and responded to the food problem confronting her effusively, promising as many as 10 million tons of PL480 wheat. However, at an early stage the transaction turned sour. > Infuriated by India's criticism of American bombings of Hanoi and Haiphong in the course of the Vietnam War, the irascible Texan put food shipments on such a tight leash that India literally lived from ship to mouth. With every morsel we swallowed a little humiliation. When told that the Indians were saying exactly the same thing as the UN Secretary-General and the Pope were, Johnson had retorted: "The Pope and the Secretary-General do not need our wheat." [1] Swallowing the humiliation (http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/swallowing-the-humiliation/645168/ http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/swallowing-the-humilia...)
    - pyuser583 3y ago
      Interesting. There are a lot of stories from the 1960s about us giving/trading food to India. The US had a massive surplus, and was trying very hard not to destroy excess food. They sent food to India, because the alternative was to let it go bad. And they would thank India for taking it. But when diplomats realized this was happening, they tried to use it to extract concessions from India. So India was being told “please take this food,” then “now that you’ve taken the food you owe us.” India wasn’t exactly pure in this either. India has been thankfully free of widespread famine since the British left. But internal controls created shortages, which were unnecessary. India could have fed itself, but that was politically untenable, just as it was politically untenable for the US government to destroy food or stop paying farmers to overproduce.
    - jeff_d_miller 3y ago
      Domestic mismanagement in India can hardly be called a sanction by the U.S. In other words, how would an independent financial system have helped India to put food on the table?
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    There were recent (2019-2022) conversations about sanctions against India for buying S-400 missile launchpads [0] This was dropped after a last minute amendment of CAASTA [1]. Though, if we're actually being honest, there was no real chance of sanctions actually being placed - it was just a negotiating ploy, and Indian Weapons manufacturers are increasingly working with American companies like GE and General Dynamics for IP transfers, though they lag behind Israel, France, and Russia in that market (FCPA's ability to pierce the corporate veil and an imo rightful aversion to IP transfers to generic competitors plays a big role in America's lag in the Indian defense market). [0] - https://www.thehindu.com/news/international/us-discourages-india-from-acquiring-russian-s-400-missile-defence-systems-president-bidens-nominee/article38265197.ece/amp/ https://www.thehindu.com/news/international/us-discourages-i... [1] - https://www.outlookindia.com/national/us-house-votes-for-caatsa-sanctions-waiver-to-india-here-is-all-you-need-to-know-news-209386/amp https://www.outlookindia.com/national/us-house-votes-for-caa...
- miohtama 3y ago
  The US has a tradition in messing with banking, but it’s not long. While sanctions have existed forever, weaponzing the banking system did not start until the last decade or two, when more power was given to FATF, and other non-elected international bodies led by the US.
villgax 3y ago
In case you are not aware, UPI is basically a rebranded IMPS with Venmo style of address. Until UPI actually works internationally it is still a domestic payment system.
- nooby12345 3y ago
  Who built the IMPS?
  - villgax 3y ago
    Technically based off the same network as ATMs by IDRBT, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Development_and_Research_in_Banking_Technology https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Development_an... Unified Payments Interface is built on top of IMPS, with the key architectural work done by the Mobile Payments Forum of India, IIT Madras and IDRBT It is managed by the National Payments Corporation of India (NPCI) and is built upon the existing National Financial Switch network.
- hestefisk 3y ago
  Singapore’s PayNow interfaces with UPI as well as PromptPay (Thailand). It’s only a matter of time before these payment rails get interconnected and SWIFT is history.

ta7789 3y ago

Absolutely, the US government has a long tradition of weaponizing US Dollar and SWIFT to cut off countries from global trade. This is a fact that has been happening ever since the petrodollar was invented. Governments all over the world, especially India, have realized this is a big vulnerability and a threat to their country's sovereignty. India, Brazil and several countries across the world have invested in their own infrastructure as they rightly should to keep their economic independence. For those who don't know India has been on the receiving end of US sanctions for a variety of reasons. While the reasoning behind the sanctions has been long debated, it is plainly obvious from the Indian vantage point that economic independence is very critical for their survival.

realityking 3y ago
> For those who don't know India has been on the receiving end of US sanctions for a variety of reasons. According to wikipedia[0] there‘s only ever been two sanctions against India by the US. A short lived one from 98-99 because of a nuclear ban and a much longer one from 92-2011 related to the space program/missile development. A quick search didn‘t turn up any current US sanctions either. Were there more sanctions or are you referring to these two?
- ta_vf7xjd34cc 3y ago
  > A quick search didn‘t turn up any current US sanctions either. The US and Indian governments have had bad relations for a long time. The US has the habit of weaponizing anything and everything. While not exactly sanctions, people don't forget things like PL480[1] that easily: > Many of us still have hurtful memories of the mid-'60s when, after two successive years of savage drought, India desperately needed American wheat under the US Public Law 480 on rupee payment — and at relatively low prices because the country had no foreign exchange to buy food in the world market. Indira Gandhi had just become prime minister and chose to go to Washington on an official visit. Lyndon Johnson gave her a gushing welcome and responded to the food problem confronting her effusively, promising as many as 10 million tons of PL480 wheat. However, at an early stage the transaction turned sour. > Infuriated by India's criticism of American bombings of Hanoi and Haiphong in the course of the Vietnam War, the irascible Texan put food shipments on such a tight leash that India literally lived from ship to mouth. With every morsel we swallowed a little humiliation. When told that the Indians were saying exactly the same thing as the UN Secretary-General and the Pope were, Johnson had retorted: "The Pope and the Secretary-General do not need our wheat." [1] Swallowing the humiliation (http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/swallowing-the-humiliation/645168/ http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/swallowing-the-humilia...)
  - pyuser583 3y ago
    Interesting. There are a lot of stories from the 1960s about us giving/trading food to India. The US had a massive surplus, and was trying very hard not to destroy excess food. They sent food to India, because the alternative was to let it go bad. And they would thank India for taking it. But when diplomats realized this was happening, they tried to use it to extract concessions from India. So India was being told “please take this food,” then “now that you’ve taken the food you owe us.” India wasn’t exactly pure in this either. India has been thankfully free of widespread famine since the British left. But internal controls created shortages, which were unnecessary. India could have fed itself, but that was politically untenable, just as it was politically untenable for the US government to destroy food or stop paying farmers to overproduce.
  - jeff_d_miller 3y ago
    Domestic mismanagement in India can hardly be called a sanction by the U.S. In other words, how would an independent financial system have helped India to put food on the table?
- alephnerd 3y ago
  There were recent (2019-2022) conversations about sanctions against India for buying S-400 missile launchpads [0] This was dropped after a last minute amendment of CAASTA [1]. Though, if we're actually being honest, there was no real chance of sanctions actually being placed - it was just a negotiating ploy, and Indian Weapons manufacturers are increasingly working with American companies like GE and General Dynamics for IP transfers, though they lag behind Israel, France, and Russia in that market (FCPA's ability to pierce the corporate veil and an imo rightful aversion to IP transfers to generic competitors plays a big role in America's lag in the Indian defense market). [0] - https://www.thehindu.com/news/international/us-discourages-india-from-acquiring-russian-s-400-missile-defence-systems-president-bidens-nominee/article38265197.ece/amp/ https://www.thehindu.com/news/international/us-discourages-i... [1] - https://www.outlookindia.com/national/us-house-votes-for-caatsa-sanctions-waiver-to-india-here-is-all-you-need-to-know-news-209386/amp https://www.outlookindia.com/national/us-house-votes-for-caa...
miohtama 3y ago
The US has a tradition in messing with banking, but it’s not long. While sanctions have existed forever, weaponzing the banking system did not start until the last decade or two, when more power was given to FATF, and other non-elected international bodies led by the US.

villgax 3y ago

In case you are not aware, UPI is basically a rebranded IMPS with Venmo style of address. Until UPI actually works internationally it is still a domestic payment system.

nooby12345 3y ago
Who built the IMPS?
- villgax 3y ago
  Technically based off the same network as ATMs by IDRBT, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Development_and_Research_in_Banking_Technology https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Development_an... Unified Payments Interface is built on top of IMPS, with the key architectural work done by the Mobile Payments Forum of India, IIT Madras and IDRBT It is managed by the National Payments Corporation of India (NPCI) and is built upon the existing National Financial Switch network.
hestefisk 3y ago
Singapore’s PayNow interfaces with UPI as well as PromptPay (Thailand). It’s only a matter of time before these payment rails get interconnected and SWIFT is history.