7 ms·

Sometimes I get the feeling personal accountability is becoming bourgeoisie.

by rib3ye 3y ago

dragonwriter 3y ago
“personal responsibility” has always been a refrain of the bourgeois to avoid, ironically, personal responsibility for the oppression of the system they maintain for the exploitation of the proletariat.
- rib3ye 3y ago
  I also wonder if we are beginning to accept criminality as class elevation. That’s a society I don’t want to be a part of.
- honeybadger1 3y ago
  I figure your either a Marxist or Communist since it's right out of that playbook to say such a thing. So your take is we can't hold bad actors accountable because you hate capitalism and you think capitalism is the thing to blame, super...I am sure you're the life of the party.
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > So your take is we can't hold bad actors accountable No, its not. > because you hate capitalism I don't hate capitalism any more than I hate childhood; it has its purpose and needs to be moved beyond. Like feudalism, though, it creates a class that is very interested in preventing that at the expense and who, insofar as they act on that interest, are bad actors and need to be held accountable.
    - honeybadger1 3y ago
      > I don't hate capitalism any more than I hate childhood; it has its purpose and needs to be moved beyond. > Like feudalism, though, it creates a class that is very interested in preventing that at the expense and who, insofar as they act on that interest, are bad actors and need to be held accountable. Apologies for the misunderstanding of your position.
  - fires10 3y ago
    I have been of the opinion that everyone needs to hold themselves accountable. The wealthy and the poor and understand why someone does what they do. Public urination? Are there sufficient facilities available? I live in the US and if I am out and about, finding an appropriate place to use the facilities is quite difficult at times. A disturbing large number of businesses in poor areas block there restrooms and or are "out of order". No, the frequency of them being "out of order" is not realistic. They are intentionally "out of order" to deny having to deal with the issue. The simple of ensuring everyone can live and exist with dignity I do hold the bourgeoise accountable for. Pointing to personal responsibility while not first ensuring everyone can adequately live is a sin.
    - r3trohack3r 3y ago
      > A disturbing large number of businesses in poor areas block there restrooms and or are "out of order" I hear you. I also have empathy for people who clean public bathrooms. I strongly suspect the “rich” and “upper class” aren’t the ones putting the “out of order” signs on the doors. It’s the workers at the store who are responsible for cleaning them. I suspect they’re tired of being responsible for cleaning up the stuff that happens in there. Feces smeared on the walls, wads of paper shoved down in the urinal and urine overflowing and flooding the floors. Vomit everywhere. If I had to hazard a guess, if you personally organized a volunteer group, went around that neighborhood, and provided reliable bathroom cleaning services and repair you’d start seeing more bathrooms. Next time you walk by one, ask the person at the front desk if they’ll let you clean it.
      - secretsatan 3y ago
        The wads of toilet paper in the urinal is one i’ve seen most often as somehow deliberate that i just don’t understand (i’ve been to some terrible toilets at festivals, short of the feces on walls most are just not able to cope with volume). I’ve never caught anyone doing the urinal one but it just seems so malicious
        fires10 3y ago
- snovv_crash 3y ago
  The funny thing is that you say it like the bad behaviour here is something that negatively impacts the rich and therefore the rich are punishing it. In reality, the bad behaviour we are discussing here (spitting indoors in public housing common space) negatively impacts the poor far more than the rich, and yet you are still against any accountability for the perpetrator. Tell me, whose side are you really on?
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > The funny thing is that you say it like the bad behaviour here [...] yet you are still against any accountability for the perpetrator. I wasn’t addressing anything beyond the generalization offered that “personal accountability is becoming bourgeoisie [sic]”, which was the only claim in the post I responded to. If I want to discuss the specifics further upthread, I’ll respond to something discussing those specifics. Assuming that I had a message other than what I said which is not reasonably related to either what I said or what I said it in response to is... quite a reach just to have something to argue about. I’m sure you can find someone actually saying something you can argue against, rather than something that requires you to conjure a fantasy point just to get upset and aegue against it.
gopher_space 3y ago
The conceit should certainly move uphill.

Sometimes I get the feeling personal accountability is becoming bourgeoisie.

by rib3ye 3y ago

Sometimes I get the feeling personal accountability is becoming bourgeoisie.

“personal responsibility” has always been a refrain of the bourgeois to avoid, ironically, personal responsibility for the oppression of the system they maintain for the exploitation of the proletariat.

rib3ye 3y ago
I also wonder if we are beginning to accept criminality as class elevation. That’s a society I don’t want to be a part of.
honeybadger1 3y ago
I figure your either a Marxist or Communist since it's right out of that playbook to say such a thing. So your take is we can't hold bad actors accountable because you hate capitalism and you think capitalism is the thing to blame, super...I am sure you're the life of the party.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > So your take is we can't hold bad actors accountable No, its not. > because you hate capitalism I don't hate capitalism any more than I hate childhood; it has its purpose and needs to be moved beyond. Like feudalism, though, it creates a class that is very interested in preventing that at the expense and who, insofar as they act on that interest, are bad actors and need to be held accountable.
  - honeybadger1 3y ago
    > I don't hate capitalism any more than I hate childhood; it has its purpose and needs to be moved beyond. > Like feudalism, though, it creates a class that is very interested in preventing that at the expense and who, insofar as they act on that interest, are bad actors and need to be held accountable. Apologies for the misunderstanding of your position.
- fires10 3y ago
  I have been of the opinion that everyone needs to hold themselves accountable. The wealthy and the poor and understand why someone does what they do. Public urination? Are there sufficient facilities available? I live in the US and if I am out and about, finding an appropriate place to use the facilities is quite difficult at times. A disturbing large number of businesses in poor areas block there restrooms and or are "out of order". No, the frequency of them being "out of order" is not realistic. They are intentionally "out of order" to deny having to deal with the issue. The simple of ensuring everyone can live and exist with dignity I do hold the bourgeoise accountable for. Pointing to personal responsibility while not first ensuring everyone can adequately live is a sin.
  - r3trohack3r 3y ago
    > A disturbing large number of businesses in poor areas block there restrooms and or are "out of order" I hear you. I also have empathy for people who clean public bathrooms. I strongly suspect the “rich” and “upper class” aren’t the ones putting the “out of order” signs on the doors. It’s the workers at the store who are responsible for cleaning them. I suspect they’re tired of being responsible for cleaning up the stuff that happens in there. Feces smeared on the walls, wads of paper shoved down in the urinal and urine overflowing and flooding the floors. Vomit everywhere. If I had to hazard a guess, if you personally organized a volunteer group, went around that neighborhood, and provided reliable bathroom cleaning services and repair you’d start seeing more bathrooms. Next time you walk by one, ask the person at the front desk if they’ll let you clean it.
    - secretsatan 3y ago
      The wads of toilet paper in the urinal is one i’ve seen most often as somehow deliberate that i just don’t understand (i’ve been to some terrible toilets at festivals, short of the feces on walls most are just not able to cope with volume). I’ve never caught anyone doing the urinal one but it just seems so malicious
      - fires10 3y ago
snovv_crash 3y ago
The funny thing is that you say it like the bad behaviour here is something that negatively impacts the rich and therefore the rich are punishing it. In reality, the bad behaviour we are discussing here (spitting indoors in public housing common space) negatively impacts the poor far more than the rich, and yet you are still against any accountability for the perpetrator. Tell me, whose side are you really on?
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > The funny thing is that you say it like the bad behaviour here [...] yet you are still against any accountability for the perpetrator. I wasn’t addressing anything beyond the generalization offered that “personal accountability is becoming bourgeoisie [sic]”, which was the only claim in the post I responded to. If I want to discuss the specifics further upthread, I’ll respond to something discussing those specifics. Assuming that I had a message other than what I said which is not reasonably related to either what I said or what I said it in response to is... quite a reach just to have something to argue about. I’m sure you can find someone actually saying something you can argue against, rather than something that requires you to conjure a fantasy point just to get upset and aegue against it.

gopher_space 3y ago

The conceit should certainly move uphill.