3 ms·

The article is heavily focused on how to prevent suicide. They note that suicide is sometimes rational (they call it "existential", euphemistically). I'm all f

The article is heavily focused on how to prevent suicide. They note that suicide is sometimes rational (they call it "existential", euphemistically). I'm all for removing the causes of people wanting to die. But if people have any rights at all, the right to decide when and how you die seems to be the most fundamental. It seems to be almost impossible nowadays to obtain the kinds of drugs (basically, barbiturates) that you need to ensure a quick, painless death. Doctors get struck-off for so much as giving true advice on how to do it. You can get charged for accompanying your relative to a Swiss clinic. The idea that relatives might encourage an elderly person to kill themselves is widespread, but I think that kind of motive is pretty rare. Mostly the opposition to enabling killing yourself is ideological, and seems to be particularly prevalent among people with strong religious opinions. I don't want to die. But I'm not very well, and I might get to the point where I do want to. So I've been trying for several years to acquire the means to do it easily. But I've failed dismally.

anonymouskimmer 3y ago
> Mostly the opposition to enabling killing yourself is ideological, and seems to be particularly prevalent among people with strong religious opinions. Kevin Yuill is an atheist. If you want the non-religious argument against state-sanctioned suicide read him (though, of course, as an individual he doesn't cover every anti-euthanasia atheist's point of view). I'm sorry for your particular situation.
- denton-scratch 3y ago
  > non-religious argument against state-sanctioned suicide I don't like the word "suicide" at all. It has strong connotations of sin and criminality. The phrase "state-sanctioned suicide" implies that the state has active involvement in someone taking their own life. What I'm talking about is the state not actively interfering to make it hard for someone to decide for themself how and when they die. "My particular situation" is nothing; I'm fine, and whatever health problems I have are the result of a life of self-indulgence and dissolution.
  - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
    Suicide literally just means killing oneself: https://www.etymonline.com/word/suicide https://www.etymonline.com/word/suicide The connotations of sin and criminality are in the eye of the beholder. > What I'm talking about is the state not actively interfering to make it hard for someone to decide for themself how and when they die. But it does by regulating it. By deciding which suicides, or requests for euthanasia[1] are legitimate, and which aren't. If there were no barriers or gatekeeping in place a large chunk of the populace would kill themselves as teenagers. [1]- incidentally, the word "euthanasia" strikes terror and horror in me. I much prefer suicide, as the grammatical locus of control is on the person killing themself, not some amorphous other.
    - denton-scratch 3y ago
      Suicide remains a sin in the eyes of the Catholic Church (the largest Christian denomination); and attempting it was a crime, at least in the UK (where I live) until 1961. People still speak of "committing" suicide, like committing murder. I can't think of any other legal act that you can "commit". [Edit] Wrong! Adultery, for example, is legal, and is something you commit. So I suppose that in general, you can "commit" it if it's a sin, or more generally something you shouldn't do.
      - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
        Sure. People also use the phrase "committing a traffic infraction". "Committing to each other in marriage" "Committing to a college" "Committing money to a cause" "Committing to God by accepting Jesus as your lord and savior" :D I totally understand that there's baggage to this word (suicide). Given the totality of the ending of life I feel that highlighting all of these connotations with the word "suicide" is a good thing to do, as a minor, first-line form of gatekeeping. Nature is red in tooth and claw. While there are many situations in which it is okay to look at life-and-death with rose-colored glasses, when push comes to shove it is important to view the world without blinders.
        3y ago
aeturnum 3y ago
IMO this is correct - an implication of the inherent worthiness of each human and each of our rights to self determination is that people get to make choices about their lives (including this kind of choice). I have always approached the morality of this question as: how should other people in the life of someone who is convinced they want to die act? It's clearly possible they are suffering from a temporary set of conditions that will pass - it's also possible that they are making a sad but accurate judgement about what they would prefer under the circumstances. The former is much more common but to ignore the later cuts you off from connecting to and helping people who are struggling. I actually quite like the disease understanding of suicidality - like other diseases we should do our best to treat it and give comfort to the afflicted, and we should work to recognize when the case is too advanced and we should switch to palliative care.
zajio1am 3y ago
> Ut seems to be almost impossible nowadays to obtain the kinds of drugs (basically, barbiturates) that you need to ensure a quick, painless death There is an easy way to get quick, painless death. One can just get diving regulator (from diving shop) and nitrogen cylinder (from industrial gas shop). As feeling of suffocation is based on raising CO2 levels, scuba mask that allows breath-out CO2 while breath-in N2 leads to fast asphyxiation without feeling of suffocation. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/253647263_Suicidal_Nitrogen_Inhalation_by_use_of_Scuba_Full-Face_Diving_Mask https://www.researchgate.net/publication/253647263_Suicidal_...
- denton-scratch 3y ago
  I'm aware that N2 leads to a quick and painless death; I've been warned more than once by lab-workers of the dangers of opening liquid N2 tanks in basements, even though I've never been near a lab. But I thought there was some downside? I can't remember. Obviously, it's difficult to dose accurately, and it's impossible to stop dosing once you've had enough. So there is a risk you'll be discovered in a space filled with an odourless, invisible toxic gas. What does a scuba mask do, that you can't do without a scuba mask? Surely, if you can breathe in and out, you can exhale CO2? My understanding is if you breathe N2, you first become unconscious (with no preceding wooziness), then you die. So there's a huge risk of accidents. Maybe that's why I thought there was a downside. At any rate, "being discovered" is something I'd want to avoid at all costs! I can't imagine what it would be like to discover the body of someone that had killed themself.

anonymouskimmer 3y ago

> Mostly the opposition to enabling killing yourself is ideological, and seems to be particularly prevalent among people with strong religious opinions. Kevin Yuill is an atheist. If you want the non-religious argument against state-sanctioned suicide read him (though, of course, as an individual he doesn't cover every anti-euthanasia atheist's point of view). I'm sorry for your particular situation.

denton-scratch 3y ago
> non-religious argument against state-sanctioned suicide I don't like the word "suicide" at all. It has strong connotations of sin and criminality. The phrase "state-sanctioned suicide" implies that the state has active involvement in someone taking their own life. What I'm talking about is the state not actively interfering to make it hard for someone to decide for themself how and when they die. "My particular situation" is nothing; I'm fine, and whatever health problems I have are the result of a life of self-indulgence and dissolution.
- anonymouskimmer 3y ago
  Suicide literally just means killing oneself: https://www.etymonline.com/word/suicide https://www.etymonline.com/word/suicide The connotations of sin and criminality are in the eye of the beholder. > What I'm talking about is the state not actively interfering to make it hard for someone to decide for themself how and when they die. But it does by regulating it. By deciding which suicides, or requests for euthanasia[1] are legitimate, and which aren't. If there were no barriers or gatekeeping in place a large chunk of the populace would kill themselves as teenagers. [1]- incidentally, the word "euthanasia" strikes terror and horror in me. I much prefer suicide, as the grammatical locus of control is on the person killing themself, not some amorphous other.
  - denton-scratch 3y ago
    Suicide remains a sin in the eyes of the Catholic Church (the largest Christian denomination); and attempting it was a crime, at least in the UK (where I live) until 1961. People still speak of "committing" suicide, like committing murder. I can't think of any other legal act that you can "commit". [Edit] Wrong! Adultery, for example, is legal, and is something you commit. So I suppose that in general, you can "commit" it if it's a sin, or more generally something you shouldn't do.
    - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
      Sure. People also use the phrase "committing a traffic infraction". "Committing to each other in marriage" "Committing to a college" "Committing money to a cause" "Committing to God by accepting Jesus as your lord and savior" :D I totally understand that there's baggage to this word (suicide). Given the totality of the ending of life I feel that highlighting all of these connotations with the word "suicide" is a good thing to do, as a minor, first-line form of gatekeeping. Nature is red in tooth and claw. While there are many situations in which it is okay to look at life-and-death with rose-colored glasses, when push comes to shove it is important to view the world without blinders.
      - 3y ago

aeturnum 3y ago

IMO this is correct - an implication of the inherent worthiness of each human and each of our rights to self determination is that people get to make choices about their lives (including this kind of choice). I have always approached the morality of this question as: how should other people in the life of someone who is convinced they want to die act? It's clearly possible they are suffering from a temporary set of conditions that will pass - it's also possible that they are making a sad but accurate judgement about what they would prefer under the circumstances. The former is much more common but to ignore the later cuts you off from connecting to and helping people who are struggling. I actually quite like the disease understanding of suicidality - like other diseases we should do our best to treat it and give comfort to the afflicted, and we should work to recognize when the case is too advanced and we should switch to palliative care.

zajio1am 3y ago

> Ut seems to be almost impossible nowadays to obtain the kinds of drugs (basically, barbiturates) that you need to ensure a quick, painless death There is an easy way to get quick, painless death. One can just get diving regulator (from diving shop) and nitrogen cylinder (from industrial gas shop). As feeling of suffocation is based on raising CO2 levels, scuba mask that allows breath-out CO2 while breath-in N2 leads to fast asphyxiation without feeling of suffocation. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/253647263_Suicidal_Nitrogen_Inhalation_by_use_of_Scuba_Full-Face_Diving_Mask https://www.researchgate.net/publication/253647263_Suicidal_...

denton-scratch 3y ago
I'm aware that N2 leads to a quick and painless death; I've been warned more than once by lab-workers of the dangers of opening liquid N2 tanks in basements, even though I've never been near a lab. But I thought there was some downside? I can't remember. Obviously, it's difficult to dose accurately, and it's impossible to stop dosing once you've had enough. So there is a risk you'll be discovered in a space filled with an odourless, invisible toxic gas. What does a scuba mask do, that you can't do without a scuba mask? Surely, if you can breathe in and out, you can exhale CO2? My understanding is if you breathe N2, you first become unconscious (with no preceding wooziness), then you die. So there's a huge risk of accidents. Maybe that's why I thought there was a downside. At any rate, "being discovered" is something I'd want to avoid at all costs! I can't imagine what it would be like to discover the body of someone that had killed themself.