4 ms·

I don't want to be arrogant or looks like moron, but how can you know that people that you know "went through worse"? How can you measure it? I`m really curious

by deelly 3y ago

I don't want to be arrogant or looks like moron, but how can you know that people that you know "went through worse"? How can you measure it? I`m really curious, because all my life I live with understanding that there no way to measure other people feeling, emotions, suffering.

s1artibartfast 3y ago
I think the point is that the critical differences are on the inside, not on the outside. People can go through worse experiences on the outside and recover and overcome. This points to the somewhat obvious reality that how people handle and respond to their environmental conditions is a critical factor in outcomes. Sometimes you have to fix the internal root of feelings, emotions, and suffering. You can believe the difference IS the person, without being overly judgmental. In fact, realizing that person themselves needs to be changed is often a key part of recovery.
- nazgulsenpai 3y ago
  I think you've really hit the nail on the head here. I think substance abuse is often treated as the underlying root problem when its just a symptom of a much deeper trauma or mental health problem. The lifestyle changes (often) required to deal with the underlying problem can't be forced on the person once the stint in rehab ends. They are usually right back to their old situation with their old friends in their old routines, or they stop taking their medicines or any number of things that lead to relapse.
  - lazyasciiart 3y ago
    This is pretty well known. The surviving brother in that story even says that his brother was using alcohol to deal with anxiety and depression.
- cat_plus_plus 3y ago
  Sure, it's possible for someone who went to war and ended up killing a family of civilians to recover, overcome and lead happy and fulfilled lives henceforth. Does it mean that another soldier struggling with constant guilt and nightmares is defective and in the need of fixing? Our justice system imposes death penalty for murder. What if someone is truly convinced, on rational bases, that they have committed a murder, but in the circumstances where justice doesn't act? Are they acting insane by taking a matter in their own hands? Now let's take another person who NEEDS to be surrounded by love and belonging and ends up estranged from family and devoid of friends, living alone in an apartment at the age of 50? Are you suggesting that this person needs to be fixed to not intensely crave those things? Or that efforts to build these up at their age are likely to be successful in today's society? Just what physical, emotional and financial resources is anyone else willing to contribute towards this person's well-being, other than pumping them full of numbing drugs?
  - ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
    > Or that efforts to build these up at their age are likely to be successful in today's society? I've seen that happen -literally- hundreds, if not thousands, of times. It's usually difficult. Like, really difficult, but sometimes, it's well worth the effort. We can often help each other through the rough bits. I've known a few folks that have done pretty awful things (not getting into detail), and have recovered. Many, work hard to help others to recover. Love, charity, empathy, and generosity are very powerful. There was a book written by Richard Adams (Watership Down), called Shardik[0]. It's about redemption. Sort of like the Ashoka myth[1]. Not a unique trope. It's never too late to recover. In many cases, we may not climb "as high" as we once were, but are much happier. In other cases, it's the opposite. I know a chap that wanted to put the park bench he slept on, in the garden of his mansion. He couldn't find it, though, as the city had replaced them, by that time. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shardik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shardik [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka
    - cat_plus_plus 3y ago
      Oh sure, I know people have rebuilt their lives in 50s. But there is luck and anecdotes and there is prevailing reality. When something is difficult, it requires physical and emotional stamina to overcome. At some point, one may be unable to handle hundreds of rejections after trying to make a single casual friend in a space of years. Not lazy, or insufficiently motivated, just not able to, period. And that assumes, for example, enough financial independence and free time from work to try in the first place. I am not ready to declare people who give up defective or put all the responsibility at their feet, rather than society in general or plain bad luck.
      - ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
        Well, I can only speak for myself, and for those in my peer group, but we regularly help each other to rebuild our lives. It takes a community. It's not usually something we can do, on our own. Long story, and not one for press, radio, and film.
  - 3y ago
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

by deelly 3y ago

s1artibartfast 3y ago

I think the point is that the critical differences are on the inside, not on the outside. People can go through worse experiences on the outside and recover and overcome. This points to the somewhat obvious reality that how people handle and respond to their environmental conditions is a critical factor in outcomes. Sometimes you have to fix the internal root of feelings, emotions, and suffering. You can believe the difference IS the person, without being overly judgmental. In fact, realizing that person themselves needs to be changed is often a key part of recovery.

nazgulsenpai 3y ago
I think you've really hit the nail on the head here. I think substance abuse is often treated as the underlying root problem when its just a symptom of a much deeper trauma or mental health problem. The lifestyle changes (often) required to deal with the underlying problem can't be forced on the person once the stint in rehab ends. They are usually right back to their old situation with their old friends in their old routines, or they stop taking their medicines or any number of things that lead to relapse.
- lazyasciiart 3y ago
  This is pretty well known. The surviving brother in that story even says that his brother was using alcohol to deal with anxiety and depression.
cat_plus_plus 3y ago
Sure, it's possible for someone who went to war and ended up killing a family of civilians to recover, overcome and lead happy and fulfilled lives henceforth. Does it mean that another soldier struggling with constant guilt and nightmares is defective and in the need of fixing? Our justice system imposes death penalty for murder. What if someone is truly convinced, on rational bases, that they have committed a murder, but in the circumstances where justice doesn't act? Are they acting insane by taking a matter in their own hands? Now let's take another person who NEEDS to be surrounded by love and belonging and ends up estranged from family and devoid of friends, living alone in an apartment at the age of 50? Are you suggesting that this person needs to be fixed to not intensely crave those things? Or that efforts to build these up at their age are likely to be successful in today's society? Just what physical, emotional and financial resources is anyone else willing to contribute towards this person's well-being, other than pumping them full of numbing drugs?
- ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
  > Or that efforts to build these up at their age are likely to be successful in today's society? I've seen that happen -literally- hundreds, if not thousands, of times. It's usually difficult. Like, really difficult, but sometimes, it's well worth the effort. We can often help each other through the rough bits. I've known a few folks that have done pretty awful things (not getting into detail), and have recovered. Many, work hard to help others to recover. Love, charity, empathy, and generosity are very powerful. There was a book written by Richard Adams (Watership Down), called Shardik[0]. It's about redemption. Sort of like the Ashoka myth[1]. Not a unique trope. It's never too late to recover. In many cases, we may not climb "as high" as we once were, but are much happier. In other cases, it's the opposite. I know a chap that wanted to put the park bench he slept on, in the garden of his mansion. He couldn't find it, though, as the city had replaced them, by that time. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shardik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shardik [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka
  - cat_plus_plus 3y ago
    Oh sure, I know people have rebuilt their lives in 50s. But there is luck and anecdotes and there is prevailing reality. When something is difficult, it requires physical and emotional stamina to overcome. At some point, one may be unable to handle hundreds of rejections after trying to make a single casual friend in a space of years. Not lazy, or insufficiently motivated, just not able to, period. And that assumes, for example, enough financial independence and free time from work to try in the first place. I am not ready to declare people who give up defective or put all the responsibility at their feet, rather than society in general or plain bad luck.
    - ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
      Well, I can only speak for myself, and for those in my peer group, but we regularly help each other to rebuild our lives. It takes a community. It's not usually something we can do, on our own. Long story, and not one for press, radio, and film.
- 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]