7 ms·

> In others, like this one[0], I find it doubly tragic, as there are proven alternative solutions "eight years of help and 21 stints in rehab" sounds like they

> In others, like this one[0], I find it doubly tragic, as there are proven alternative solutions "eight years of help and 21 stints in rehab" sounds like they tried pretty hard to find a better solution. Not everyone can be cured.

ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
Like I said, I personally know folks that have been clean for decades, and went through worse. I’ll be hanging out with a bunch, tonight. Addiction is a very strange problem. Lots of folks have opinions on it, but I have experience with it. And that’s about all I’ll say on the matter.
- jackvalentine 3y ago
  Are you discounting the person who chose euthanasia’s experience with it by saying that though?
  - ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
    Nope.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- cesaref 3y ago
  I've always found it interesting that addictive behaviour is often seen as a virtue by our society if it's about the 'right sort of thing' (as far as society is concerned). We end up considering people as 'dedicated' or 'committed' to some cause or other. If they are a workaholic, or pious, or a sports superstar, or a concert pianist, chances are there is an addictive personality that just happens to have gotten attached to a socially acceptable pursuit. Meanwhile, the same people with a slight twist of fate end up in rehab.
  - ajmurmann 3y ago
    Worth pointing out. I know of a person who was a workaholic and then died pretty young from also having been a secret alcoholic for much of their life.
  - dale_glass 3y ago
    That's just utilitarianism? There's a bunch of things where the morality of what you're doing will change depending on a small detail, with the main action being essentially the same. Eg, if you dedicate yourself to exterminating rats with dedication and professionalism you'll be a hero, do the same thing using the same tools and attitude to cats and dogs and you'll be a monster. Which is exactly how it should be IMO. We build the world we live in by enacting change in it. Praising actions in a context devoid of its consequences is a good way to end up in a world where everyone basically hacks the reward algorithm without any concerns about the results of that.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    Addiction is defined by the negative impact on the addict, not the behavior itself. It is a semantics game. Drive, Focus, and motivation are just that unless they are maladaptive and detrimental to the individual. These behaviors only become addiction when they run counter to the goals and desires of the individual.
  - phonescreen_man 3y ago
    No such thing as an addictive personality- it was invented by the pharmaceutical companies (the term) to play down the addictive effects of their drugs, doctors were told only people with addictive personalities will get hooked on the opioids
    - qwytw 3y ago
      I can't say much about 'personalities' but it has been quite consistently demonstrated that some people are genetically predisposed and more likely to become addicted to certain substances than others regardless of social factors or even (pre-addiction) consumption patterns.
- deelly 3y ago
  I don't want to be arrogant or looks like moron, but how can you know that people that you know "went through worse"? How can you measure it? I`m really curious, because all my life I live with understanding that there no way to measure other people feeling, emotions, suffering.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    I think the point is that the critical differences are on the inside, not on the outside. People can go through worse experiences on the outside and recover and overcome. This points to the somewhat obvious reality that how people handle and respond to their environmental conditions is a critical factor in outcomes. Sometimes you have to fix the internal root of feelings, emotions, and suffering. You can believe the difference IS the person, without being overly judgmental. In fact, realizing that person themselves needs to be changed is often a key part of recovery.
    - nazgulsenpai 3y ago
      I think you've really hit the nail on the head here. I think substance abuse is often treated as the underlying root problem when its just a symptom of a much deeper trauma or mental health problem. The lifestyle changes (often) required to deal with the underlying problem can't be forced on the person once the stint in rehab ends. They are usually right back to their old situation with their old friends in their old routines, or they stop taking their medicines or any number of things that lead to relapse.
      - lazyasciiart 3y ago
        This is pretty well known. The surviving brother in that story even says that his brother was using alcohol to deal with anxiety and depression.
    - cat_plus_plus 3y ago
      Sure, it's possible for someone who went to war and ended up killing a family of civilians to recover, overcome and lead happy and fulfilled lives henceforth. Does it mean that another soldier struggling with constant guilt and nightmares is defective and in the need of fixing? Our justice system imposes death penalty for murder. What if someone is truly convinced, on rational bases, that they have committed a murder, but in the circumstances where justice doesn't act? Are they acting insane by taking a matter in their own hands? Now let's take another person who NEEDS to be surrounded by love and belonging and ends up estranged from family and devoid of friends, living alone in an apartment at the age of 50? Are you suggesting that this person needs to be fixed to not intensely crave those things? Or that efforts to build these up at their age are likely to be successful in today's society? Just what physical, emotional and financial resources is anyone else willing to contribute towards this person's well-being, other than pumping them full of numbing drugs?
- kstenerud 3y ago
  AKA the "man up" argument. You know people who survived worse, thereby somehow invalidating the people who didn't make it when they were suffering less. Because you have experience with it and can therefore judge others.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    Nobody is saying it's easy or that people are invalid here.
    - kstenerud 3y ago
      ChrisMarshallNY is sitting in judgment of the fellow in Holland who made use of the euthanasia laws there. Specifically: "I find it doubly tragic, as there are proven alternative solutions" (judgment) "I personally know many people that were once far worse off than that gentleman, and are now doing quite well" (justification that invalidates the man's suffering) "Lots of folks have opinions on it, but I have experience with it." (Pushing his opinion above others, to hammer the judgment home) He doesn't know Mark Langedijk's mind and soul, and yet he feels comfortable desecrating the man's legacy.
      - s1artibartfast 3y ago
        I don't find that to be overly invalidating or judgmental. There is a difference between saying you think someone is/was wrong, and denying their humanity.
        Retric 3y ago
        It’s the definition of judgmental to say someone is wrong like that. You’re judging their actions as wrong.
        s1artibartfast 3y ago
        Note that I said overly judgmental. Judgment itself is part of the human condition. You can judge an action or choice without demeaning or dehumanizing the person. You can even do it from a place of empathy understanding and compassion. The idea of that people shouldn't or can't judge any choice or action another makes is absurd at face value.
- omginternets 3y ago
  I’d appreciate it if you didn’t dismiss everybody’s opinions on the matter for lack of direct experience. You’re setting things up to avoid debate.
  - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
    There's enough wiseacring as is.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
    "War talk by men who have been in a war is always interesting; whereas moon talk by a poet who has not been in the moon is likely to be dull." - Mark Twain
    - omginternets 3y ago
      The good thing about interesting vs dull is that you can just filter it on the spot. No need to dismiss people before actually hearing what has been said.
- hotpotamus 3y ago
  I personally know people who have been dirty for decades. A friend of mine "inherited" the stewardship of one such person and he was a miserable bastard until he died of cancer and the only people who knew him regretted that it didn't progress faster. He was a drag on the few people willing to associate with him (neither his mother or daughter among them) both emotionally and financially. I myself helped clean up the disgusting mass of cigarette tar filled beer cans he left in my friend's house after he passed. So your mileage may vary I suppose. And that's about all I'll say on the matter.
throwawayadvsec 3y ago
The first step would be to understand that rehab is not the solution to any kind of problem. Rehab is about making a lot of money, not healing people, they benefit from relapsing, they have zero incentive to help people.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  This is a typical overly cynical and overly online take. I think it would be dispelled by talking to or being friends with a single person that works in rehab
  - currymj 3y ago
    there are certain places where a lot of dubious, predatory drug rehab facilities have popped up in the last decade, since health insurance now has to pay for it, yet it's not quite regulated like other healthcare. if you see a lot of these it can make you very cynical.
    - s1artibartfast 3y ago
      I'm sure bad things happen, but to embrace all or nothing cynicism is to reject reality. It is pathological in it's own right to paint the world with such broad and biased brushstrokes.
- vlunkr 3y ago
  You could apply this to countless professions. Plumbing is about making a lot of money, they benefit from you pipes leaking again. We just have to hope that human beings actually care about their work.
- denton-scratch 3y ago
  Rehab helps about a quarter of the people it treats - provided you accept that they'll probably need multiple rounds of treatment. It's wicked to encourage the belief that a single round of rehab, followed by lots of willpower, is likely to solve problems.
mschuster91 3y ago
> "eight years of help and 21 stints in rehab" sounds like they tried pretty hard to find a better solution. First step towards that would be to ditch Anonymous Alcoholics and other religious cult-based "rehabs".
- zozbot234 3y ago
  AA and other twelve-steps programs are not inherently "religious-based". They only ask you to believe in some power higher than yourself that you can tap into as a source of inner sternness and restraint. You can call that a spiritual outlook if you like, but it's a very mild one and quite far from any organized or established religion. And it actually works quite well as far as helping people to stop drinking and stay off alcohol for the long term.
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    There have been many that linked it to being cultist (e.g. [1]). > And it actually works quite well as far as helping people to stop drinking and stay off alcohol for the long term. In any case, that is my biggest issue with AA and a lot of other "abstinence" programs (particularly those mandated by courts): they all but mandate that complete and utter sobriety is the only acceptable way instead of helping people to moderate their consumption or to find out and fix why they are consuming substances. Someone who's in hurt because their partner died or cheated upon them or they lost their job or home (these four causes are behind a lot of addiction careers) doesn't need a sobriety program run by questionably or barely qualified random joes, they need professional counseling. [1] https://www.skeptic.org.uk/2023/03/from-the-archives-exposing-the-myth-of-alcoholics-anonymous-cult-not-cure/ https://www.skeptic.org.uk/2023/03/from-the-archives-exposin...
    - scruple 3y ago
      I spent decades of my life trying to pursue moderation. It doesn't work (for me). The Sinclair Method worked. I tried AA but the white knuckle approach wasn't right for me. I know people who have absolutely gotten sober using AA, others who use both, and others still who use different medications. In my experience, moderation was the worst possible solution. It was like perpetually kicking the problem down the road to be dealt with on another day. Relapse was frequent and always right around the corner, and with relapse came shame, guilt, and other feelings of failure.

ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago

Like I said, I personally know folks that have been clean for decades, and went through worse. I’ll be hanging out with a bunch, tonight. Addiction is a very strange problem. Lots of folks have opinions on it, but I have experience with it. And that’s about all I’ll say on the matter.

jackvalentine 3y ago
Are you discounting the person who chose euthanasia’s experience with it by saying that though?
- ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
  Nope.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
cesaref 3y ago
I've always found it interesting that addictive behaviour is often seen as a virtue by our society if it's about the 'right sort of thing' (as far as society is concerned). We end up considering people as 'dedicated' or 'committed' to some cause or other. If they are a workaholic, or pious, or a sports superstar, or a concert pianist, chances are there is an addictive personality that just happens to have gotten attached to a socially acceptable pursuit. Meanwhile, the same people with a slight twist of fate end up in rehab.
- ajmurmann 3y ago
  Worth pointing out. I know of a person who was a workaholic and then died pretty young from also having been a secret alcoholic for much of their life.
- dale_glass 3y ago
  That's just utilitarianism? There's a bunch of things where the morality of what you're doing will change depending on a small detail, with the main action being essentially the same. Eg, if you dedicate yourself to exterminating rats with dedication and professionalism you'll be a hero, do the same thing using the same tools and attitude to cats and dogs and you'll be a monster. Which is exactly how it should be IMO. We build the world we live in by enacting change in it. Praising actions in a context devoid of its consequences is a good way to end up in a world where everyone basically hacks the reward algorithm without any concerns about the results of that.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  Addiction is defined by the negative impact on the addict, not the behavior itself. It is a semantics game. Drive, Focus, and motivation are just that unless they are maladaptive and detrimental to the individual. These behaviors only become addiction when they run counter to the goals and desires of the individual.
- phonescreen_man 3y ago
  No such thing as an addictive personality- it was invented by the pharmaceutical companies (the term) to play down the addictive effects of their drugs, doctors were told only people with addictive personalities will get hooked on the opioids
  - qwytw 3y ago
    I can't say much about 'personalities' but it has been quite consistently demonstrated that some people are genetically predisposed and more likely to become addicted to certain substances than others regardless of social factors or even (pre-addiction) consumption patterns.
deelly 3y ago
I don't want to be arrogant or looks like moron, but how can you know that people that you know "went through worse"? How can you measure it? I`m really curious, because all my life I live with understanding that there no way to measure other people feeling, emotions, suffering.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  I think the point is that the critical differences are on the inside, not on the outside. People can go through worse experiences on the outside and recover and overcome. This points to the somewhat obvious reality that how people handle and respond to their environmental conditions is a critical factor in outcomes. Sometimes you have to fix the internal root of feelings, emotions, and suffering. You can believe the difference IS the person, without being overly judgmental. In fact, realizing that person themselves needs to be changed is often a key part of recovery.
  - nazgulsenpai 3y ago
    I think you've really hit the nail on the head here. I think substance abuse is often treated as the underlying root problem when its just a symptom of a much deeper trauma or mental health problem. The lifestyle changes (often) required to deal with the underlying problem can't be forced on the person once the stint in rehab ends. They are usually right back to their old situation with their old friends in their old routines, or they stop taking their medicines or any number of things that lead to relapse.
    - lazyasciiart 3y ago
      This is pretty well known. The surviving brother in that story even says that his brother was using alcohol to deal with anxiety and depression.
  - cat_plus_plus 3y ago
    Sure, it's possible for someone who went to war and ended up killing a family of civilians to recover, overcome and lead happy and fulfilled lives henceforth. Does it mean that another soldier struggling with constant guilt and nightmares is defective and in the need of fixing? Our justice system imposes death penalty for murder. What if someone is truly convinced, on rational bases, that they have committed a murder, but in the circumstances where justice doesn't act? Are they acting insane by taking a matter in their own hands? Now let's take another person who NEEDS to be surrounded by love and belonging and ends up estranged from family and devoid of friends, living alone in an apartment at the age of 50? Are you suggesting that this person needs to be fixed to not intensely crave those things? Or that efforts to build these up at their age are likely to be successful in today's society? Just what physical, emotional and financial resources is anyone else willing to contribute towards this person's well-being, other than pumping them full of numbing drugs?
kstenerud 3y ago
AKA the "man up" argument. You know people who survived worse, thereby somehow invalidating the people who didn't make it when they were suffering less. Because you have experience with it and can therefore judge others.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  Nobody is saying it's easy or that people are invalid here.
  - kstenerud 3y ago
    ChrisMarshallNY is sitting in judgment of the fellow in Holland who made use of the euthanasia laws there. Specifically: "I find it doubly tragic, as there are proven alternative solutions" (judgment) "I personally know many people that were once far worse off than that gentleman, and are now doing quite well" (justification that invalidates the man's suffering) "Lots of folks have opinions on it, but I have experience with it." (Pushing his opinion above others, to hammer the judgment home) He doesn't know Mark Langedijk's mind and soul, and yet he feels comfortable desecrating the man's legacy.
    - s1artibartfast 3y ago
      I don't find that to be overly invalidating or judgmental. There is a difference between saying you think someone is/was wrong, and denying their humanity.
      - Retric 3y ago
        It’s the definition of judgmental to say someone is wrong like that. You’re judging their actions as wrong.
        s1artibartfast 3y ago
        Note that I said overly judgmental. Judgment itself is part of the human condition. You can judge an action or choice without demeaning or dehumanizing the person. You can even do it from a place of empathy understanding and compassion. The idea of that people shouldn't or can't judge any choice or action another makes is absurd at face value.
omginternets 3y ago
I’d appreciate it if you didn’t dismiss everybody’s opinions on the matter for lack of direct experience. You’re setting things up to avoid debate.
- anonymouskimmer 3y ago
  There's enough wiseacring as is.
- ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
  "War talk by men who have been in a war is always interesting; whereas moon talk by a poet who has not been in the moon is likely to be dull." - Mark Twain
  - omginternets 3y ago
    The good thing about interesting vs dull is that you can just filter it on the spot. No need to dismiss people before actually hearing what has been said.
hotpotamus 3y ago
I personally know people who have been dirty for decades. A friend of mine "inherited" the stewardship of one such person and he was a miserable bastard until he died of cancer and the only people who knew him regretted that it didn't progress faster. He was a drag on the few people willing to associate with him (neither his mother or daughter among them) both emotionally and financially. I myself helped clean up the disgusting mass of cigarette tar filled beer cans he left in my friend's house after he passed. So your mileage may vary I suppose. And that's about all I'll say on the matter.

throwawayadvsec 3y ago

The first step would be to understand that rehab is not the solution to any kind of problem. Rehab is about making a lot of money, not healing people, they benefit from relapsing, they have zero incentive to help people.

s1artibartfast 3y ago
This is a typical overly cynical and overly online take. I think it would be dispelled by talking to or being friends with a single person that works in rehab
- currymj 3y ago
  there are certain places where a lot of dubious, predatory drug rehab facilities have popped up in the last decade, since health insurance now has to pay for it, yet it's not quite regulated like other healthcare. if you see a lot of these it can make you very cynical.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    I'm sure bad things happen, but to embrace all or nothing cynicism is to reject reality. It is pathological in it's own right to paint the world with such broad and biased brushstrokes.
vlunkr 3y ago
You could apply this to countless professions. Plumbing is about making a lot of money, they benefit from you pipes leaking again. We just have to hope that human beings actually care about their work.
denton-scratch 3y ago
Rehab helps about a quarter of the people it treats - provided you accept that they'll probably need multiple rounds of treatment. It's wicked to encourage the belief that a single round of rehab, followed by lots of willpower, is likely to solve problems.

mschuster91 3y ago

> "eight years of help and 21 stints in rehab" sounds like they tried pretty hard to find a better solution. First step towards that would be to ditch Anonymous Alcoholics and other religious cult-based "rehabs".

zozbot234 3y ago
AA and other twelve-steps programs are not inherently "religious-based". They only ask you to believe in some power higher than yourself that you can tap into as a source of inner sternness and restraint. You can call that a spiritual outlook if you like, but it's a very mild one and quite far from any organized or established religion. And it actually works quite well as far as helping people to stop drinking and stay off alcohol for the long term.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  There have been many that linked it to being cultist (e.g. [1]). > And it actually works quite well as far as helping people to stop drinking and stay off alcohol for the long term. In any case, that is my biggest issue with AA and a lot of other "abstinence" programs (particularly those mandated by courts): they all but mandate that complete and utter sobriety is the only acceptable way instead of helping people to moderate their consumption or to find out and fix why they are consuming substances. Someone who's in hurt because their partner died or cheated upon them or they lost their job or home (these four causes are behind a lot of addiction careers) doesn't need a sobriety program run by questionably or barely qualified random joes, they need professional counseling. [1] https://www.skeptic.org.uk/2023/03/from-the-archives-exposing-the-myth-of-alcoholics-anonymous-cult-not-cure/ https://www.skeptic.org.uk/2023/03/from-the-archives-exposin...
  - scruple 3y ago
    I spent decades of my life trying to pursue moderation. It doesn't work (for me). The Sinclair Method worked. I tried AA but the white knuckle approach wasn't right for me. I know people who have absolutely gotten sober using AA, others who use both, and others still who use different medications. In my experience, moderation was the worst possible solution. It was like perpetually kicking the problem down the road to be dealt with on another day. Relapse was frequent and always right around the corner, and with relapse came shame, guilt, and other feelings of failure.