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The goal of Lojban is to eliminate syntactic/grammatical ambiguity: Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana. In this example, "flies" could be e

The goal of Lojban is to eliminate syntactic/grammatical ambiguity: Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana. In this example, "flies" could be either a noun or verb depending on context. That sort of construct isn't possible in Lojban. Of course, it's still possible to use Lojban to express statements that have an ambiguous or unclear meaning.

djtango 3y ago
Ah, classic HN Saturday morning - finding myself dreaming up Hungarian notation in English to disambiguate grammatical types nTime vFlies avLike an nArrow, nFruit vFlies avLike a nBanana It's ugly but if we all adhere to this convention and haze our juniors, we'll eliminate most our problems
- prerok 3y ago
  avLike still has two different meanings ;) Actually, I am not sure that having different meanings of the same word in different contexts is really the problematic part causing ambiguity in conversations. For example, sarcasm is a much more difficult problem. The words are the same, the meaning of the sentences is the same but the author's intent, the meaning behind those sentences is opposite if they are being sarcastic or not.
- detrites 3y ago
  > nFruit nFlies vLike a nBanana vFprTprpFprY.
- blauditore 3y ago
  The latter part actually refers to fruit flies (insects), who like bananas. Also took me a while to figure out.
  - djtango 3y ago
    Ah - bugs will be bugs!
- cjallen88 3y ago
  This is basically what Esperanto and Ido do, different word classes and in different letters.
- yosito 3y ago
  As someone who speaks Hungarian, but never seen Hungarian notation outside the context of programming, I'm suddenly realizing that Hungarian notation is probably named after how the Hungarian language itself works. Words in Hungarian have specific endings that change their "grammatical type" (I forget the grammatical term for that... part of speech?) Some examples: 1. "-ás/-és": Transforms a verb into a noun that denotes an action or a profession. For example, the verb "tanul" (to study) becomes "tanulás" (study or studying). 2. "-ó/-ő": Converts a verb into a noun that refers to a person who does the action. For example, "tanít" (to teach) becomes "tanító" (teacher). 3. "-hat/-het": Added to a verb to form a new verb indicating possibility or permission. For example, "olvas" (reads) turns into "olvas-hat" (may/can read). 4. "-tlan/-tlen": When attached to a noun, it creates an adjective expressing the lack of something. For example, "szín" (color) becomes "színtelen" (colorless). 5. "-i": Added to a noun to create an adjective indicating origin or belonging. For example, "Amerika" (America) becomes "amerikai" (American). 6. "-ol": Attached to nouns to form verbs. This is often used with foreign words in Hungarian, like "ghosting-ol", "bullying-ol", "coworking-ol". Additionally, in Hungarian these suffixes can be combined, so if you want to use the English noun "ghosting" as a noun in Hungarian, you still actually have to add the suffixes, so you would say "ghosting-ol-ás".
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - shagie 3y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_notation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_notation > The original Hungarian notation was invented by Charles Simonyi, a programmer who worked at Xerox PARC circa 1972–1981, and who later became Chief Architect at Microsoft. The name of the notation is a reference to Simonyi's nation of origin, and also, according to Andy Hertzfeld, because it made programs "look like they were written in some inscrutable foreign language". Hungarian people's names are "reversed" compared to most other European names; the family name precedes the given name. For example, the anglicized name "Charles Simonyi" in Hungarian was originally "Simonyi Károly". In the same way, the type name precedes the "given name" in Hungarian notation. The similar Smalltalk "type last" naming style (e.g. aPoint and lastPoint) was common at Xerox PARC during Simonyi's tenure there. > Simonyi's paper on the notation referred to prefixes used to indicate the "type" of information being stored. His proposal was largely concerned with decorating identifier names based upon the semantic information of what they store (in other words, the variable's purpose). Simonyi's notation came to be called Apps Hungarian, since the convention was used in the applications division of Microsoft. Systems Hungarian developed later in the Microsoft Windows development team. Apps Hungarian is not entirely distinct from what became known as Systems Hungarian, as some of Simonyi's suggested prefixes contain little or no semantic information (see below for examples). --- Simonyi's native language may have had some impact on how he wrote code, but it was not "human language -> write code like Hungarian -> Hungarian notation". https://www.technologyreview.com/2007/01/01/227178/anything-you-can-do-i-can-do-meta/ https://www.technologyreview.com/2007/01/01/227178/anything-... > The resulting code was dense and hard to read. Simonyi’s system came to be known as Hungarian notation, both in homage to its creator’s birthplace and because it made programs “look like they were written in some inscrutable foreign language,” according to programming pioneer Andy Hertzfeld. Hungarian is widely cursed by its detractors. Canadian Java expert Roedy Green has jokingly called it “the tactical nuclear weapon of source code obfuscation techniques.” Mozilla programmer Alec Flett wrote this parody: prepBut nI vrbLike adjHungarian! qWhat’s artThe adjBig nProblem?
- shagie 3y ago
  On my yet to be assembled shelf of random things will be a bunch of books that intend to make one go o_O when they read titles in the background of video call. One of the books is the language guide to Ithkuil ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ithkuil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ithkuil /// https://www.amazon.com/Grammar-Ithkuil-Language-John-Quijada/dp/B071G1XDKT/ https://www.amazon.com/Grammar-Ithkuil-Language-John-Quijada... //// https://youtu.be/x_x_PQ85_0k https://youtu.be/x_x_PQ85_0k ) This might fit some of your goals.
- emsign 3y ago
  What problems? Why most? And why "our"? I find it silly to think that a more precise language is going to solve "most of our problems", it's a bold claim which I believe to be false. No, world problems do not vanish if we were just better at understanding each other, that's not how world problems arise.
adastra22 3y ago
Which is a bit ironic, because in the year 2023 it turns out that correctly parsing sentences is an easier problem to solve than extracting meaning from context, even when given a known correct parsing. Lojban solved the wrong problem.
- emsign 3y ago
  Exactly. And being able to handle ambiguity as a human is one of our strong points. We must not cripple our mental capability to understand and use ambiguity in language, it would a loss.
emsign 3y ago
Why would you want to use a language that eliminates this ambiguity other than in legal or academic contexts? I think sentences like "Fruit flies like a banana." must exist, they are useful in that they are stimulating the recipient's mind to question the senders intentions. It demands further inquiries and questions, which is I think a good thing. In some cases being vague and ambigious is the only way to ask further questions.

djtango 3y ago

Ah, classic HN Saturday morning - finding myself dreaming up Hungarian notation in English to disambiguate grammatical types nTime vFlies avLike an nArrow, nFruit vFlies avLike a nBanana It's ugly but if we all adhere to this convention and haze our juniors, we'll eliminate most our problems

prerok 3y ago
avLike still has two different meanings ;) Actually, I am not sure that having different meanings of the same word in different contexts is really the problematic part causing ambiguity in conversations. For example, sarcasm is a much more difficult problem. The words are the same, the meaning of the sentences is the same but the author's intent, the meaning behind those sentences is opposite if they are being sarcastic or not.
detrites 3y ago
> nFruit nFlies vLike a nBanana vFprTprpFprY.
blauditore 3y ago
The latter part actually refers to fruit flies (insects), who like bananas. Also took me a while to figure out.
- djtango 3y ago
  Ah - bugs will be bugs!
cjallen88 3y ago
This is basically what Esperanto and Ido do, different word classes and in different letters.
yosito 3y ago
As someone who speaks Hungarian, but never seen Hungarian notation outside the context of programming, I'm suddenly realizing that Hungarian notation is probably named after how the Hungarian language itself works. Words in Hungarian have specific endings that change their "grammatical type" (I forget the grammatical term for that... part of speech?) Some examples: 1. "-ás/-és": Transforms a verb into a noun that denotes an action or a profession. For example, the verb "tanul" (to study) becomes "tanulás" (study or studying). 2. "-ó/-ő": Converts a verb into a noun that refers to a person who does the action. For example, "tanít" (to teach) becomes "tanító" (teacher). 3. "-hat/-het": Added to a verb to form a new verb indicating possibility or permission. For example, "olvas" (reads) turns into "olvas-hat" (may/can read). 4. "-tlan/-tlen": When attached to a noun, it creates an adjective expressing the lack of something. For example, "szín" (color) becomes "színtelen" (colorless). 5. "-i": Added to a noun to create an adjective indicating origin or belonging. For example, "Amerika" (America) becomes "amerikai" (American). 6. "-ol": Attached to nouns to form verbs. This is often used with foreign words in Hungarian, like "ghosting-ol", "bullying-ol", "coworking-ol". Additionally, in Hungarian these suffixes can be combined, so if you want to use the English noun "ghosting" as a noun in Hungarian, you still actually have to add the suffixes, so you would say "ghosting-ol-ás".
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- shagie 3y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_notation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_notation > The original Hungarian notation was invented by Charles Simonyi, a programmer who worked at Xerox PARC circa 1972–1981, and who later became Chief Architect at Microsoft. The name of the notation is a reference to Simonyi's nation of origin, and also, according to Andy Hertzfeld, because it made programs "look like they were written in some inscrutable foreign language". Hungarian people's names are "reversed" compared to most other European names; the family name precedes the given name. For example, the anglicized name "Charles Simonyi" in Hungarian was originally "Simonyi Károly". In the same way, the type name precedes the "given name" in Hungarian notation. The similar Smalltalk "type last" naming style (e.g. aPoint and lastPoint) was common at Xerox PARC during Simonyi's tenure there. > Simonyi's paper on the notation referred to prefixes used to indicate the "type" of information being stored. His proposal was largely concerned with decorating identifier names based upon the semantic information of what they store (in other words, the variable's purpose). Simonyi's notation came to be called Apps Hungarian, since the convention was used in the applications division of Microsoft. Systems Hungarian developed later in the Microsoft Windows development team. Apps Hungarian is not entirely distinct from what became known as Systems Hungarian, as some of Simonyi's suggested prefixes contain little or no semantic information (see below for examples). --- Simonyi's native language may have had some impact on how he wrote code, but it was not "human language -> write code like Hungarian -> Hungarian notation". https://www.technologyreview.com/2007/01/01/227178/anything-you-can-do-i-can-do-meta/ https://www.technologyreview.com/2007/01/01/227178/anything-... > The resulting code was dense and hard to read. Simonyi’s system came to be known as Hungarian notation, both in homage to its creator’s birthplace and because it made programs “look like they were written in some inscrutable foreign language,” according to programming pioneer Andy Hertzfeld. Hungarian is widely cursed by its detractors. Canadian Java expert Roedy Green has jokingly called it “the tactical nuclear weapon of source code obfuscation techniques.” Mozilla programmer Alec Flett wrote this parody: prepBut nI vrbLike adjHungarian! qWhat’s artThe adjBig nProblem?
shagie 3y ago
On my yet to be assembled shelf of random things will be a bunch of books that intend to make one go o_O when they read titles in the background of video call. One of the books is the language guide to Ithkuil ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ithkuil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ithkuil /// https://www.amazon.com/Grammar-Ithkuil-Language-John-Quijada/dp/B071G1XDKT/ https://www.amazon.com/Grammar-Ithkuil-Language-John-Quijada... //// https://youtu.be/x_x_PQ85_0k https://youtu.be/x_x_PQ85_0k ) This might fit some of your goals.
emsign 3y ago
What problems? Why most? And why "our"? I find it silly to think that a more precise language is going to solve "most of our problems", it's a bold claim which I believe to be false. No, world problems do not vanish if we were just better at understanding each other, that's not how world problems arise.

adastra22 3y ago

Which is a bit ironic, because in the year 2023 it turns out that correctly parsing sentences is an easier problem to solve than extracting meaning from context, even when given a known correct parsing. Lojban solved the wrong problem.

emsign 3y ago
Exactly. And being able to handle ambiguity as a human is one of our strong points. We must not cripple our mental capability to understand and use ambiguity in language, it would a loss.

emsign 3y ago

Why would you want to use a language that eliminates this ambiguity other than in legal or academic contexts? I think sentences like "Fruit flies like a banana." must exist, they are useful in that they are stimulating the recipient's mind to question the senders intentions. It demands further inquiries and questions, which is I think a good thing. In some cases being vague and ambigious is the only way to ask further questions.