4 ms·

Honestly, as a fellow QWERTZ-native, QWERTZ is generally a terrible layout for doing any programming in languages that go beyond round brackets. Instead have al

by linmob 3y ago

Honestly, as a fellow QWERTZ-native, QWERTZ is generally a terrible layout for doing any programming in languages that go beyond round brackets. Instead have all these umlauts you rarely need, even in normal writing, right there - just a bad tradeoff. One might even argue that it's terrible for some other keyboard shortcuts, as they stop making sense: E.g., when Ctrl+Z is undo and Ctrl+X is redo, that makes perfect sense on QWERTY, but is hard to grasp on QWERTZ. Yet this is seemingly never customized/"translated", even in software that customizes other shortcuts (e.g., in word processing). So, long story short, do yourselves a favor and don't use QWERTZ for serious computer use ;-)

europeanNyan 3y ago
This sounds like a lot of gatekeeping. QWERTZ types need not apply for serious computer use. Even worse are those ones who would prefer to write a proper e-mail using umlauts.
- linmob 3y ago
  Now, you can complain about gatekeeping, or you can set up more than one keyboard layout (I have yet to run into a reasonable OS or DE that does not allow for this), and switch around when it's appropriate. Other ways to accomplish this would be coming up with macros or custom shortcuts (e.g., with one or more modifiers), to type the characters you don't have on an UK layout. All of this is way easier to do than to fix all the 'bugs' in well established programs that have shortcuts that don't work or don't make sense on QWERTZ (or, to take it further, in the native language attached to that language - :wq should be :sb in German. ;-) ) My intention here was not to gatekeep, but to make the case/share my experience that when I first forced myself to use a different (UK [1]) keyboard layout and set my computer to English, many things that previously were cumbersome and hard to remember and did not really make sense, suddenly were easy to memorize and made perfect sense. It was almost life-changing! Now: Should (1) it be this way, or should (2) internationalization/translation be way better? Certainly (2), but I just don't see it happen, neither in commercial (cost), nor in free (lack of contributors) software. [1]: Don't do this, US international ISO is better: https://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/A-Visual-Comparison-of-Different-National-Layouts/#enUSin https://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/A-Visual-Comparison-of-Diff...
wkat4242 3y ago
Spanish keyboards, while QWERTY, are terrible for this too. All the special characters are in a weird place and many require modifiers. While I live in Spain now I still use the US layout I'm used to from the Netherlands. It means I can't type the Spanish accents which are kinda important but anyway...
- okl 3y ago
  Try the EN intl layout. Most of the accents are accessible using AltGr. Also the ¡ and ¿
  - anthk 3y ago
    Using super_r+'+a is not that bad. Super_r+' can be done with ease with the right key as a pinch.
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    The problem with this is that it works differently on each OS. Every day I use Windows, Mac, Linux and FreeBSD. I need an input method that is unified in every OS or I'll constantly mistype. Apple's different shortcuts for copy paste are difficult enough already.
- cfn 3y ago
  Same here with Portuguese keyboards! I gave up on them 30 years ago and adopted UK or US layouts. For a long time I wrote a kind of pidgin Portuguese due to this but eventually learned the Portuguese layout by heart using both US and UK layouts.
croes 3y ago
Do you know how often I need umlauts if I want a proper variable name?
- wuiheerfoj 3y ago
  Not sure what language you speak, but in German umlauts can always be replaced with an ‚e‘ suffix. Having written codebases in German, I’ve never seen anybody actually use special chars in a var names! (probably a carryover from the pre-UTF-8 dark ages)
nier 3y ago
If you’re using QWERTY as a QWERTZ-native, chances are you have a curious mind that won’t settle for the status quo.
thepostman0 3y ago
Talking of rarely need, most 105-key boards have numeric pads that are dust covered. TKL layouts are the future and they have an additional fn modifier, maybe there's room here to add another purpose to it.
deleted 3y ago
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by linmob 3y ago

europeanNyan 3y ago

This sounds like a lot of gatekeeping. QWERTZ types need not apply for serious computer use. Even worse are those ones who would prefer to write a proper e-mail using umlauts.

linmob 3y ago
Now, you can complain about gatekeeping, or you can set up more than one keyboard layout (I have yet to run into a reasonable OS or DE that does not allow for this), and switch around when it's appropriate. Other ways to accomplish this would be coming up with macros or custom shortcuts (e.g., with one or more modifiers), to type the characters you don't have on an UK layout. All of this is way easier to do than to fix all the 'bugs' in well established programs that have shortcuts that don't work or don't make sense on QWERTZ (or, to take it further, in the native language attached to that language - :wq should be :sb in German. ;-) ) My intention here was not to gatekeep, but to make the case/share my experience that when I first forced myself to use a different (UK [1]) keyboard layout and set my computer to English, many things that previously were cumbersome and hard to remember and did not really make sense, suddenly were easy to memorize and made perfect sense. It was almost life-changing! Now: Should (1) it be this way, or should (2) internationalization/translation be way better? Certainly (2), but I just don't see it happen, neither in commercial (cost), nor in free (lack of contributors) software. [1]: Don't do this, US international ISO is better: https://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/A-Visual-Comparison-of-Different-National-Layouts/#enUSin https://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/A-Visual-Comparison-of-Diff...

wkat4242 3y ago

Spanish keyboards, while QWERTY, are terrible for this too. All the special characters are in a weird place and many require modifiers. While I live in Spain now I still use the US layout I'm used to from the Netherlands. It means I can't type the Spanish accents which are kinda important but anyway...

okl 3y ago
Try the EN intl layout. Most of the accents are accessible using AltGr. Also the ¡ and ¿
- anthk 3y ago
  Using super_r+'+a is not that bad. Super_r+' can be done with ease with the right key as a pinch.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  The problem with this is that it works differently on each OS. Every day I use Windows, Mac, Linux and FreeBSD. I need an input method that is unified in every OS or I'll constantly mistype. Apple's different shortcuts for copy paste are difficult enough already.
cfn 3y ago
Same here with Portuguese keyboards! I gave up on them 30 years ago and adopted UK or US layouts. For a long time I wrote a kind of pidgin Portuguese due to this but eventually learned the Portuguese layout by heart using both US and UK layouts.

croes 3y ago

Do you know how often I need umlauts if I want a proper variable name?

wuiheerfoj 3y ago
Not sure what language you speak, but in German umlauts can always be replaced with an ‚e‘ suffix. Having written codebases in German, I’ve never seen anybody actually use special chars in a var names! (probably a carryover from the pre-UTF-8 dark ages)

nier 3y ago

If you’re using QWERTY as a QWERTZ-native, chances are you have a curious mind that won’t settle for the status quo.

thepostman0 3y ago

Talking of rarely need, most 105-key boards have numeric pads that are dust covered. TKL layouts are the future and they have an additional fn modifier, maybe there's room here to add another purpose to it.

deleted 3y ago

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