5 ms·

Hardly sounds like either a bug or a showstopper when you can rebind any command

by muti 3y ago

p-e-w 3y ago
When a product is unusable without changing configuration, it absolutely is a bug. Being customizable is great, but being broken by default is not. Besides, the whole point of Vim bindings is supposed to be that they are the same everywhere (muscle memory yadda yadda yadda). When you have to change core bindings to something random to make them work, that whole idea falls apart, and you're probably better off using the platform standard bindings for everything. Plus, you get the additional benefit that the software fits in with the rest of the system, rather than sticking out like a sore thumb.
- RhodesianHunter 3y ago
  >When a product is unusable without changing configuration, it absolutely is a bug I don't think that adage applies when the target user is the average VIM user
  - dexterdog 3y ago
    But the average vim user is jumping to new instances often, so if he has to reconfigure it everywhere he might as well install a different editor with a config.
    - irishloop 3y ago
      I am not sure thats true. vim does give you extra utility in its availability on a wide variety of server-type platforms, but I suspect most vim users are using it actively for development on their local (or docker etc) boxes
      - sodapopcan 3y ago
        Yep, lots of us "Vim as a local IDE" users out here. I haven't "jumped around machines" in years. Vim is a nugget of battle-tested familiarity in an industry of constant change.
    - alpaca128 3y ago
      I have over 100 custom keybindings in my Vim config and can assure you I can still use the default configuration without any issues, it's just a bit slower. The few settings I find really important can just be quickly set with a couple commands. No big deal.
    - usrbinbash 3y ago
      Lets see, how many commands does it take me to port my entire vim config to a new machine? Ah, right...one. git clone https://github.com/MY_USERNAME/vim.git Not exactly what I'd call a difficult or time consuming method.
      - zamnos 3y ago
        you missed the ~/.vim at the end
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- theK 3y ago
  I‘ve heard this argument in variations from QERTZ users. The thing is, programming was invented with the QWERTY UX in mind. The fact that the German keyboard resembles the American keyboard for 80% of its Lay-out doesn’t change that. You don’t hear the Arabic, Chinese or Greek crowds complain about this, they just switch layouts.
- alpaca128 3y ago
  > the whole point of Vim bindings is supposed to be that they are the same everywhere No, the point is customizability to tweak it to your personal needs. Vim has the most flexible keybinding system I've seen in a program so far. If you want "same everywhere" any editor will do. I have never in my life seen anyone make this argument that one of the most customizeable editors is meant to be used without configuration. > you're probably better off using the platform standard bindings for everything Or maybe I use Vim exactly because it fits my workflow better than the standard that was designed for the average user as a series of historical accidents? > When a product is unusable without changing configuration, it absolutely is a bug It's not a bug, it's a design based on how 99% of input devices in the region it was created in work. Just like US electrical appliances that you can't just plug into European power sockets. And honestly you're blowing this way out of proportion, very few Vim keybindings are incompatible with QWERTZ keyboards. I know because I used Vim for years with a QWERTZ keyboard and never felt limited by that.
- usrbinbash 3y ago
  > Besides, the whole point of Vim bindings is supposed to be that they are the same everywhere (muscle memory yadda yadda yadda). No, the whole point of ViM bindings is that MY bindings are the same everywhere. That's why it's main config is a simple textfile that I can just `git clone` or `sftp` onto whatever machine I intend to spend more than a few seconds writing code on. Which, incidentially, is something that is an absolute PITA, if it's possible at all with the more "modern" editors, or on the off chance it isn't a PITA, usually depends on some specific platforms offerings. > Plus, you get the additional benefit that the software fits in with the rest of the system, rather than sticking out like a sore thumb. Well, from my PoV, what with i3 desktop, vim in the terminal, and the browser being the only GUI application that I use regularly, vim seems to fit in pretty well with everything else.

Hardly sounds like either a bug or a showstopper when you can rebind any command

by muti 3y ago

Hardly sounds like either a bug or a showstopper when you can rebind any command

When a product is unusable without changing configuration, it absolutely is a bug. Being customizable is great, but being broken by default is not. Besides, the whole point of Vim bindings is supposed to be that they are the same everywhere (muscle memory yadda yadda yadda). When you have to change core bindings to something random to make them work, that whole idea falls apart, and you're probably better off using the platform standard bindings for everything. Plus, you get the additional benefit that the software fits in with the rest of the system, rather than sticking out like a sore thumb.

RhodesianHunter 3y ago
>When a product is unusable without changing configuration, it absolutely is a bug I don't think that adage applies when the target user is the average VIM user
- dexterdog 3y ago
  But the average vim user is jumping to new instances often, so if he has to reconfigure it everywhere he might as well install a different editor with a config.
  - irishloop 3y ago
    I am not sure thats true. vim does give you extra utility in its availability on a wide variety of server-type platforms, but I suspect most vim users are using it actively for development on their local (or docker etc) boxes
    - sodapopcan 3y ago
      Yep, lots of us "Vim as a local IDE" users out here. I haven't "jumped around machines" in years. Vim is a nugget of battle-tested familiarity in an industry of constant change.
  - alpaca128 3y ago
    I have over 100 custom keybindings in my Vim config and can assure you I can still use the default configuration without any issues, it's just a bit slower. The few settings I find really important can just be quickly set with a couple commands. No big deal.
  - usrbinbash 3y ago
    Lets see, how many commands does it take me to port my entire vim config to a new machine? Ah, right...one. git clone https://github.com/MY_USERNAME/vim.git Not exactly what I'd call a difficult or time consuming method.
    - zamnos 3y ago
      you missed the ~/.vim at the end
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
theK 3y ago
I‘ve heard this argument in variations from QERTZ users. The thing is, programming was invented with the QWERTY UX in mind. The fact that the German keyboard resembles the American keyboard for 80% of its Lay-out doesn’t change that. You don’t hear the Arabic, Chinese or Greek crowds complain about this, they just switch layouts.
alpaca128 3y ago
> the whole point of Vim bindings is supposed to be that they are the same everywhere No, the point is customizability to tweak it to your personal needs. Vim has the most flexible keybinding system I've seen in a program so far. If you want "same everywhere" any editor will do. I have never in my life seen anyone make this argument that one of the most customizeable editors is meant to be used without configuration. > you're probably better off using the platform standard bindings for everything Or maybe I use Vim exactly because it fits my workflow better than the standard that was designed for the average user as a series of historical accidents? > When a product is unusable without changing configuration, it absolutely is a bug It's not a bug, it's a design based on how 99% of input devices in the region it was created in work. Just like US electrical appliances that you can't just plug into European power sockets. And honestly you're blowing this way out of proportion, very few Vim keybindings are incompatible with QWERTZ keyboards. I know because I used Vim for years with a QWERTZ keyboard and never felt limited by that.
usrbinbash 3y ago
> Besides, the whole point of Vim bindings is supposed to be that they are the same everywhere (muscle memory yadda yadda yadda). No, the whole point of ViM bindings is that MY bindings are the same everywhere. That's why it's main config is a simple textfile that I can just `git clone` or `sftp` onto whatever machine I intend to spend more than a few seconds writing code on. Which, incidentially, is something that is an absolute PITA, if it's possible at all with the more "modern" editors, or on the off chance it isn't a PITA, usually depends on some specific platforms offerings. > Plus, you get the additional benefit that the software fits in with the rest of the system, rather than sticking out like a sore thumb. Well, from my PoV, what with i3 desktop, vim in the terminal, and the browser being the only GUI application that I use regularly, vim seems to fit in pretty well with everything else.