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In other words, you're extrinsically motivated. Possibly an excess of rewards and punishments in the past has burned you out and destroyed your intrinsic motiva

In other words, you're extrinsically motivated. Possibly an excess of rewards and punishments in the past has burned you out and destroyed your intrinsic motivation, as extrinsic motivators are known to do. Your final paragraph makes it sound that way. For knowledge work, though, the best work is done by people who are intrinsically motivated. Rewards (like a life-altering kickback) don't actually elevate performance that much. Instead, they become the new baseline, and performance falls once again. Alfie Kohn talks about a study in his book, "Punished by Rewards," where kindergartners who received a reward for coloring—something they normally intrinsically enjoyed!—spent less time coloring than those who didn't. I guess what I'm saying is that you sound burned out, and you might be happier if you chased work you loved rather than a fat cheque. As for me, I'd rather hire people who are intrinsically motivated and pay them fairly. People can tell when their coworkers aren't engaged. It spoils the culture of the whole team.

nerdponx 3y ago
This sounds highly entitled on your part. Employment is a transactional business relationship. I care a lot about my work and my profession in general, but at the end of the day I'm being paid to care about whatever it is that I'm being paid to care about.
- BenjiWiebe 3y ago
  I want to be paid for my work, but you can't buy my care. Or maybe it would be possible but no job has offered enough to buy my care yet. It's just that I do care about my job regardless of the pay.
  - nerdponx 3y ago
    I care about my job and the industry I work in, otherwise I wouldn't have the job in the first place. But if I wasn't being paid, I wouldn't do the work. You can't buy my basic personal interest, but you can absolutely buy my ongoing care and attention.
davesque 3y ago
You sound like a blast to work for.
- jdlshore 3y ago
  I know you’re just trying to be insulting, but it’s truly gratifying to do work that you feel is meaningful and engaging. So, yes. I am.
  - davesque 3y ago
    Honestly, no. I just get tired of hearing the same boring "I only hire go getters who enjoy hard work for its own sake" mantra in response to people asserting their own worth. The thing that I think you (and many others in this weak crop of leaders) don't understand about your own success story is that you were one of the lucky ones. The reality is that a lot of others out there burned their midnight oil, and even probably enjoyed the thrill of it, but then got nothing for it. Indeed, they probably even got laid off as a reward. And then they rationally decided that they didn't want to die a sucker.
    - jdlshore 3y ago
      You're so eager to take offense, you're imagining I'm someone different than who I am, and that I'm saying something different than what I'm saying. I'm a programmer who advises software leaders on how to create effective software development organizations. I didn't get here by burning the midnight oil; I got here by understanding software development—and getting lucky. I adopted Extreme Programming back in 1999, had notable successes, and people wanted to learn from my experience. I'm saying that people work most effectively when they are intrinsically motivated. This is well supported by books such as Alfie Kohn's _Punished By Rewards,_ and more recently popularized by Daniel Pink. The job of the manager is to support that motivation: to provide context and resources (I don't mean people); to trust people to do a good job; to put decisions about work processes in the hands of the people doing the work. And yes, to hire people who are worthy of that trust, and who work well in that sort of environment, and to remove people who are not. This is not about working long hours, or taking advantage of people. It's about doing work that you can be proud of, in an environment that supports doing your best work, with a team that's jelled, creating things that are better than you can create alone. If you've never been in that kind of environment, it might seem like an impossible dream, or even a cynical ploy to pay less. It's not.
mitthrowaway2 3y ago
If you don't need to pay your employees more than what's "fair" because they aren't motivated by money, what becomes of the excess profit in your company that you save on bloated salaries? Do you donate it to charity? And on a related note, what motivates you?
tarruda 3y ago
> you might be happier if you chased work you loved rather than a fat cheque. That has always been the case for me: as long as I can comfortably pay my bills, I don't really care about extra money, has zero effect on my performance. But even when doing what I love (programming), I still feel the need for some form of external recognition. I've noticed even a simple "thank you for the extra work" or "great job" can do wonders for my motivation within the company. > People can tell when their coworkers aren't engaged. It spoils the culture of the whole team. I wonder if that's the case for remote workers. I have been fully remote for the past 10 or so years and it almost always seems to me most people are slacking and I'm the one putting in most of the work.
petra 3y ago
Everything in psychology is so contextual. How can we reliablt study a work done one children coloring books and getting small rewards , as a relevancy for grown people, serious people. with families to feed that are getting big bonuses that have high impact on them ?
agumonkey 3y ago
I rarely read people talk about intrisic vs extrinsic. But I've seen this on the field in various jobs. Intrinsic motivation is rarely rewarded (and most of the time ground down). That's why a lot of people just want their own WFH gig so they can keep reaching higher levels as they see fit.
neilv 3y ago
> For knowledge work, though, the best work is done by people who are intrinsically motivated. Rewards (like a life-altering kickback) don't actually elevate performance that much. Instead, they become the new baseline, and performance falls once again. Should angel investors decline to fund founding teams that aren't this instrinsically motivated? "70%?! That sounds extrinsically motivated... We believe that the best work is done for intrinsic satisfaction! We'll throw in a subsistence salary and 1% equity, just because. (And let's make it options, not founders' shares, since you're intrinsically motivated, right?)"
- yowlingcat 3y ago
  They could, but then they'd lose out on strong deals. Perhaps performance and capability to negotiate is sometimes downstream of, but not always not 1:1 correlated to, intrinsic vs extrinsic motivation. In my experience, the top performers I've hired and worked with who have had the highest performance and highest compensation have all been intrinsically motivated. YMMV.

nerdponx 3y ago

This sounds highly entitled on your part. Employment is a transactional business relationship. I care a lot about my work and my profession in general, but at the end of the day I'm being paid to care about whatever it is that I'm being paid to care about.

BenjiWiebe 3y ago
I want to be paid for my work, but you can't buy my care. Or maybe it would be possible but no job has offered enough to buy my care yet. It's just that I do care about my job regardless of the pay.
- nerdponx 3y ago
  I care about my job and the industry I work in, otherwise I wouldn't have the job in the first place. But if I wasn't being paid, I wouldn't do the work. You can't buy my basic personal interest, but you can absolutely buy my ongoing care and attention.

davesque 3y ago

You sound like a blast to work for.

jdlshore 3y ago
I know you’re just trying to be insulting, but it’s truly gratifying to do work that you feel is meaningful and engaging. So, yes. I am.
- davesque 3y ago
  Honestly, no. I just get tired of hearing the same boring "I only hire go getters who enjoy hard work for its own sake" mantra in response to people asserting their own worth. The thing that I think you (and many others in this weak crop of leaders) don't understand about your own success story is that you were one of the lucky ones. The reality is that a lot of others out there burned their midnight oil, and even probably enjoyed the thrill of it, but then got nothing for it. Indeed, they probably even got laid off as a reward. And then they rationally decided that they didn't want to die a sucker.
  - jdlshore 3y ago
    You're so eager to take offense, you're imagining I'm someone different than who I am, and that I'm saying something different than what I'm saying. I'm a programmer who advises software leaders on how to create effective software development organizations. I didn't get here by burning the midnight oil; I got here by understanding software development—and getting lucky. I adopted Extreme Programming back in 1999, had notable successes, and people wanted to learn from my experience. I'm saying that people work most effectively when they are intrinsically motivated. This is well supported by books such as Alfie Kohn's _Punished By Rewards,_ and more recently popularized by Daniel Pink. The job of the manager is to support that motivation: to provide context and resources (I don't mean people); to trust people to do a good job; to put decisions about work processes in the hands of the people doing the work. And yes, to hire people who are worthy of that trust, and who work well in that sort of environment, and to remove people who are not. This is not about working long hours, or taking advantage of people. It's about doing work that you can be proud of, in an environment that supports doing your best work, with a team that's jelled, creating things that are better than you can create alone. If you've never been in that kind of environment, it might seem like an impossible dream, or even a cynical ploy to pay less. It's not.

mitthrowaway2 3y ago

If you don't need to pay your employees more than what's "fair" because they aren't motivated by money, what becomes of the excess profit in your company that you save on bloated salaries? Do you donate it to charity? And on a related note, what motivates you?

tarruda 3y ago

> you might be happier if you chased work you loved rather than a fat cheque. That has always been the case for me: as long as I can comfortably pay my bills, I don't really care about extra money, has zero effect on my performance. But even when doing what I love (programming), I still feel the need for some form of external recognition. I've noticed even a simple "thank you for the extra work" or "great job" can do wonders for my motivation within the company. > People can tell when their coworkers aren't engaged. It spoils the culture of the whole team. I wonder if that's the case for remote workers. I have been fully remote for the past 10 or so years and it almost always seems to me most people are slacking and I'm the one putting in most of the work.

petra 3y ago

Everything in psychology is so contextual. How can we reliablt study a work done one children coloring books and getting small rewards , as a relevancy for grown people, serious people. with families to feed that are getting big bonuses that have high impact on them ?

agumonkey 3y ago

I rarely read people talk about intrisic vs extrinsic. But I've seen this on the field in various jobs. Intrinsic motivation is rarely rewarded (and most of the time ground down). That's why a lot of people just want their own WFH gig so they can keep reaching higher levels as they see fit.

neilv 3y ago

> For knowledge work, though, the best work is done by people who are intrinsically motivated. Rewards (like a life-altering kickback) don't actually elevate performance that much. Instead, they become the new baseline, and performance falls once again. Should angel investors decline to fund founding teams that aren't this instrinsically motivated? "70%?! That sounds extrinsically motivated... We believe that the best work is done for intrinsic satisfaction! We'll throw in a subsistence salary and 1% equity, just because. (And let's make it options, not founders' shares, since you're intrinsically motivated, right?)"

yowlingcat 3y ago
They could, but then they'd lose out on strong deals. Perhaps performance and capability to negotiate is sometimes downstream of, but not always not 1:1 correlated to, intrinsic vs extrinsic motivation. In my experience, the top performers I've hired and worked with who have had the highest performance and highest compensation have all been intrinsically motivated. YMMV.