5 ms·

Hear me out. 40 hours dedicated to your employer, however you slice them, is modern slavery. Why the hell are we creating all this technology to slave even more

by sph 3y ago

Hear me out. 40 hours dedicated to your employer, however you slice them, is modern slavery. Why the hell are we creating all this technology to slave even more, with only energy to drool in front of Netflix and repeat the next day? People should have the time to explore their passions, projects and families more than a couple hours every day. Not dedicate half of their waking life, their mental and physical prime, to someone else's idea for food money. Something snapped for me the past few years, but I'd rather eat ramen, than get $250k a year and expected to be at my employer's beck and call 8am-5pm. Go be an hungry artist. Go work for yourself on the things you care about. The fact that pretty much no one seems to see anything wrong with this terrifies me. Being a corporate drone has become the norm.

mym1990 3y ago
Wow, 250k a year to go to work 8-5 is “modern slavery”. On a bit of a high horse there.
- janalsncm 3y ago
  250k is peanuts compared to the value that developer creates for the company.
  - sph 3y ago
    "Boss makes a dollar, I make a dime, that's why I read HN on company time."
- sph 3y ago
  Slavery is quite a loaded word, agreed. My point is your time on this Earth is more valuable than $250k. It is not being a slave, but it is not being a free man either. There are people in abject poverty that do not have to ask for permission to anyone to spend two weeks doing whatever they want, or to end the day early today. I do not believe freedom is one-dimensional, on one side the Egyptian slave, on the other, the FAANG engineer. The latter has only a theoretical ownership of their time, but in reality, to keep a roof over their head, society pretty much favours only one choice: As much time as you can give, for as little money as you would take.
- slily 3y ago
  Seriously. I'll take that job any day. I am in the same boat for <$150k and consider myself blessed when I'm not reading HN commenters bragging about their salary. At least you have a shot at retiring early in exchange for a set of responsibilities that plenty of people share for much less money.
  - sph 3y ago
    It was a figure pulled out of my ass. I've never earned half that, and these days I'm eating ramen because I am not accepting the status of modern society and trying to spend all my time and mental energy to find a third way. Hence this rant. I am not prescribing anything to anybody. It is just sad that criticising the status quo is seen as proof of privilege. It is ungrateful of me to entertain the idea that life can be much more, as I have at times enjoyed the fruits of our modern society... Seems like a convenient ad hominem.
    - mym1990 3y ago
      It’s totally reasonable to criticize the status quo, and to me at least it is totally okay if that is coming from a place of privilege. But there are also so many out there(most even) who can’t afford to think about anything but the next paycheck to put food on the table for their family or for themselves. I think replacing “modern slavery” with “modern society” is a great improvement! They don’t call it the rat race for nothin!
    - emerongi 3y ago
      For what it's worth, there's many people who agree with you, myself included. Modern society has created unnecessary work, stressors and pressures that are quite artificial. Everybody goes along without questioning it, at least not aloud. I will admit that I am by nature someone who takes the alternative path. It's entirely possible that the world is working just fine and I am unable to adjust to it. However, I can't change my nature and have to find a different way to live, because there is no other option for me.
      - sph 3y ago
JohnFen 3y ago
Oh, we agree more than we disagree. The only part I really take issue with is the notion that working for someone is modern slavery. I don't think it's anything even close that. Slaves can't quit and do something else. They can't even change who their "owners" are. > I'd rather eat ramen, than get $250k a year and expected to be at my employer's beck and call 8am-5pm. I know a lot of people who make that exact choice. > The fact that pretty much no one seems to see anything wrong with this terrifies me. I think lots of people see the problem and fundamentally agree with you. The issue is that solutions to the problem are difficult for most people.
- sph 3y ago
  > Slaves can't quit and do something else. I discussed the slavery point below, but here let me defend its usage: it is slavery if you consider the society as a whole, not just your job. Chances are, if you don't want to work for a year, you probably can't afford housing because you are renting. Statistically, you do not even have money to support yourself for a year. Culturally, we do not share food with strangers and neighbours, unless it's a particular event. One side of my family is from equatorial Africa. My great-grandfather had a hut made with his own hands, and readily available food. If he wanted he could have spent his time philosophising on nature. We have invented machines so our quality of life is much higher than him, but in exchange our time is not our own. Statistically speaking, the average Westerner, if they don't think about earning money for a year, they end up without a house, possibly starving. That fate, the spectre of that inhuman life, is the metaphorical whip of our master. The choice is made for us.
  - sixstringtheory 3y ago
    I get you, because I’ve been down this line of thought as well. But I’ve concluded the whip hand is not even that of society, but nature itself. Everyone is driven by the biological need to eat, at the end of the day. So how did your great grandfather eat? Where did this readily available food come from? Would other people provide him with endless food while he did this philosophizing? I imagine that any society, whether advanced megalopolis or tribal village, has a limit to their generosity towards complete nonproducers and would eventually demand something out of them, even if it’s just the output of that philosophizing. Someone had to work to produce that readily available food, I would think. If he grew/harvested his own food, then he’d be lucky if he never experienced a stressful or even deadly event of pestilence, drought, or even injury to himself rendering him incapable of doing the quite hard work of growing and harvesting it. Producing food is hard work and modern technological capitalism can be seen as a process of creating more and more layers of abstraction between food producers and the mouths that need to be fed, and doing it more efficiently at that to generate more spare time for other activities like leisure or philosophizing.
capitalsigma 3y ago
Would you prefer subsistence farming?
wonderwonder 3y ago
I don't disagree with you in principal but its hard to tell my kids to say goodbye to their friends and that we are selling the house and moving to a cheaper area where they will attend a rougher school because daddy has a philosophical objection to working for a boss. If you are single and just responsible for yourself though, more power to you. Before I had kids I did something similar. I hit an absolute wall. Took a 50% paycut and left development. It was pretty good for a a couple years and then I started getting promoted and then got screwed over by office politics and started hating it. I went back to programming after that and the first job back was awesome. Very low pay but no crazy deadlines, small team, etc. Then I had kids and needed more $ so started job hopping. Now its just the suck every day.

by sph 3y ago

mym1990 3y ago

Wow, 250k a year to go to work 8-5 is “modern slavery”. On a bit of a high horse there.

janalsncm 3y ago
250k is peanuts compared to the value that developer creates for the company.
- sph 3y ago
  "Boss makes a dollar, I make a dime, that's why I read HN on company time."
sph 3y ago
Slavery is quite a loaded word, agreed. My point is your time on this Earth is more valuable than $250k. It is not being a slave, but it is not being a free man either. There are people in abject poverty that do not have to ask for permission to anyone to spend two weeks doing whatever they want, or to end the day early today. I do not believe freedom is one-dimensional, on one side the Egyptian slave, on the other, the FAANG engineer. The latter has only a theoretical ownership of their time, but in reality, to keep a roof over their head, society pretty much favours only one choice: As much time as you can give, for as little money as you would take.
slily 3y ago
Seriously. I'll take that job any day. I am in the same boat for <$150k and consider myself blessed when I'm not reading HN commenters bragging about their salary. At least you have a shot at retiring early in exchange for a set of responsibilities that plenty of people share for much less money.
- sph 3y ago
  It was a figure pulled out of my ass. I've never earned half that, and these days I'm eating ramen because I am not accepting the status of modern society and trying to spend all my time and mental energy to find a third way. Hence this rant. I am not prescribing anything to anybody. It is just sad that criticising the status quo is seen as proof of privilege. It is ungrateful of me to entertain the idea that life can be much more, as I have at times enjoyed the fruits of our modern society... Seems like a convenient ad hominem.
  - mym1990 3y ago
    It’s totally reasonable to criticize the status quo, and to me at least it is totally okay if that is coming from a place of privilege. But there are also so many out there(most even) who can’t afford to think about anything but the next paycheck to put food on the table for their family or for themselves. I think replacing “modern slavery” with “modern society” is a great improvement! They don’t call it the rat race for nothin!
  - emerongi 3y ago
    For what it's worth, there's many people who agree with you, myself included. Modern society has created unnecessary work, stressors and pressures that are quite artificial. Everybody goes along without questioning it, at least not aloud. I will admit that I am by nature someone who takes the alternative path. It's entirely possible that the world is working just fine and I am unable to adjust to it. However, I can't change my nature and have to find a different way to live, because there is no other option for me.
    - sph 3y ago

JohnFen 3y ago

Oh, we agree more than we disagree. The only part I really take issue with is the notion that working for someone is modern slavery. I don't think it's anything even close that. Slaves can't quit and do something else. They can't even change who their "owners" are. > I'd rather eat ramen, than get $250k a year and expected to be at my employer's beck and call 8am-5pm. I know a lot of people who make that exact choice. > The fact that pretty much no one seems to see anything wrong with this terrifies me. I think lots of people see the problem and fundamentally agree with you. The issue is that solutions to the problem are difficult for most people.

sph 3y ago
> Slaves can't quit and do something else. I discussed the slavery point below, but here let me defend its usage: it is slavery if you consider the society as a whole, not just your job. Chances are, if you don't want to work for a year, you probably can't afford housing because you are renting. Statistically, you do not even have money to support yourself for a year. Culturally, we do not share food with strangers and neighbours, unless it's a particular event. One side of my family is from equatorial Africa. My great-grandfather had a hut made with his own hands, and readily available food. If he wanted he could have spent his time philosophising on nature. We have invented machines so our quality of life is much higher than him, but in exchange our time is not our own. Statistically speaking, the average Westerner, if they don't think about earning money for a year, they end up without a house, possibly starving. That fate, the spectre of that inhuman life, is the metaphorical whip of our master. The choice is made for us.
- sixstringtheory 3y ago
  I get you, because I’ve been down this line of thought as well. But I’ve concluded the whip hand is not even that of society, but nature itself. Everyone is driven by the biological need to eat, at the end of the day. So how did your great grandfather eat? Where did this readily available food come from? Would other people provide him with endless food while he did this philosophizing? I imagine that any society, whether advanced megalopolis or tribal village, has a limit to their generosity towards complete nonproducers and would eventually demand something out of them, even if it’s just the output of that philosophizing. Someone had to work to produce that readily available food, I would think. If he grew/harvested his own food, then he’d be lucky if he never experienced a stressful or even deadly event of pestilence, drought, or even injury to himself rendering him incapable of doing the quite hard work of growing and harvesting it. Producing food is hard work and modern technological capitalism can be seen as a process of creating more and more layers of abstraction between food producers and the mouths that need to be fed, and doing it more efficiently at that to generate more spare time for other activities like leisure or philosophizing.

capitalsigma 3y ago

Would you prefer subsistence farming?

wonderwonder 3y ago

I don't disagree with you in principal but its hard to tell my kids to say goodbye to their friends and that we are selling the house and moving to a cheaper area where they will attend a rougher school because daddy has a philosophical objection to working for a boss. If you are single and just responsible for yourself though, more power to you. Before I had kids I did something similar. I hit an absolute wall. Took a 50% paycut and left development. It was pretty good for a a couple years and then I started getting promoted and then got screwed over by office politics and started hating it. I went back to programming after that and the first job back was awesome. Very low pay but no crazy deadlines, small team, etc. Then I had kids and needed more $ so started job hopping. Now its just the suck every day.