5 ms·

More code isn’t better. As an engineering manager I don’t want 5x as many lines of code. I want the code you work on to be solving the right problems. Figuring

More code isn’t better. As an engineering manager I don’t want 5x as many lines of code. I want the code you work on to be solving the right problems. Figuring out what the right problems and solutions are and making sure everyone on the team understands them is why you’re in meetings.

JohnFen 3y ago
> Figuring out what the right problems and solutions are and making sure everyone on the team understands them is why you’re in meetings. That's the idea, but does it work in practice? From what I can see, very little of that takes place in actual meetings. It takes place in emails and chats, because meetings don't allow you the time or space to really think about the issues.
candiddevmike 3y ago
Very rarely does that happen during meetings, in my experience it happens async during RFCs, pull requests, and chat conversations. Fostering async communication is slow productivity to me, and it results in better outcomes than forcing decisions in meetings.
srcreigh 3y ago
This isn’t really what tends to happen in meetings ime. Usually the problem is well understood and the meetings are spent with architecture types micromanaging the implementation of the solution.
goostavos 3y ago
I don't think more meeting are the solution here. Most meetings are a complete and utter waste of time. They meander, they lack focus, and beget more meetings as a result. I am obsessive about correctness, I want to build the right thing, but meeting culture is fundamentally broken. It's faux productivity. Humans getting together on a call -- often many of whom have no real stake in the game -- is just about the slowest way possible to get alignment on something. And, more often than not, that alignment ends up wrong, because spoken word sucks at precision -- even when aided by Word / Excel. I've become increasingly bullish on using formal methods for business requirements. The dev side can spent time modeling their understanding of the problem, then use small *focused* meetings with the business to move that understanding of the current model forward. tbh, my experimenting with this approach is still early. But, initial results are really promising. It feels really good to be able to concretely model (and machine check!) something amongst a small group, and then only schedule/attend a meeting when you need to confirm that your invariant are correct.
- engagthe 3y ago
  I agree! I do think if you cut ALL meetings, you may miss out on some important relationship building stuff that is helpful when necessary conflict arises. Formalizing business requirement gathering may help reduce conflict, which is great, but you inevitably will have some. That said, I don’t think meetings are a good way to build relationships or trust, and there are more efficient and enjoyable ways to do that! If in person, at least go for a walk, get some food together, talk about hobbies, etc. Give some freedom to “waste time” just getting to know people, especially if the relationships will come in handy later! If you kill unnecessary meetings, you should have plenty of time for this! People need down time to de-stress, and to recharge, but meetings are not the way.
  - re-thc 3y ago
    No 1 says you have to have the meeting in the meeting room. You could do it in a cafe or elsewhere. Not everything has to be so strict. Depends on your team and environment.
    - wonderwonder 3y ago
      I wish. Many of us work from home now though so its just zoom meeting after zoom meeting.
closeparen 3y ago
This almost never happens in official scheduled meetings or in the presence of any kind of manager. Instead it takes place randomly around the office, in Slack chats that escalate to ad-hoc Zoom calls, in documents and their comment threads, in putting eyes and hands on the actual product (underrated!), or in deep-diving data.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
wonderwonder 3y ago
This is not accomplished by holding developers in 15+ people meetings over and over again. Opening my calendar and seeing that I have 8 or 9 30+ minute meetings means I am going to get nothing accomplished today due to context switching. Its every day. I have almost no 2 - 3 hour periods where I can just focus

JohnFen 3y ago

> Figuring out what the right problems and solutions are and making sure everyone on the team understands them is why you’re in meetings. That's the idea, but does it work in practice? From what I can see, very little of that takes place in actual meetings. It takes place in emails and chats, because meetings don't allow you the time or space to really think about the issues.

candiddevmike 3y ago

Very rarely does that happen during meetings, in my experience it happens async during RFCs, pull requests, and chat conversations. Fostering async communication is slow productivity to me, and it results in better outcomes than forcing decisions in meetings.

srcreigh 3y ago

This isn’t really what tends to happen in meetings ime. Usually the problem is well understood and the meetings are spent with architecture types micromanaging the implementation of the solution.

goostavos 3y ago

I don't think more meeting are the solution here. Most meetings are a complete and utter waste of time. They meander, they lack focus, and beget more meetings as a result. I am obsessive about correctness, I want to build the right thing, but meeting culture is fundamentally broken. It's faux productivity. Humans getting together on a call -- often many of whom have no real stake in the game -- is just about the slowest way possible to get alignment on something. And, more often than not, that alignment ends up wrong, because spoken word sucks at precision -- even when aided by Word / Excel. I've become increasingly bullish on using formal methods for business requirements. The dev side can spent time modeling their understanding of the problem, then use small *focused* meetings with the business to move that understanding of the current model forward. tbh, my experimenting with this approach is still early. But, initial results are really promising. It feels really good to be able to concretely model (and machine check!) something amongst a small group, and then only schedule/attend a meeting when you need to confirm that your invariant are correct.

engagthe 3y ago
I agree! I do think if you cut ALL meetings, you may miss out on some important relationship building stuff that is helpful when necessary conflict arises. Formalizing business requirement gathering may help reduce conflict, which is great, but you inevitably will have some. That said, I don’t think meetings are a good way to build relationships or trust, and there are more efficient and enjoyable ways to do that! If in person, at least go for a walk, get some food together, talk about hobbies, etc. Give some freedom to “waste time” just getting to know people, especially if the relationships will come in handy later! If you kill unnecessary meetings, you should have plenty of time for this! People need down time to de-stress, and to recharge, but meetings are not the way.
- re-thc 3y ago
  No 1 says you have to have the meeting in the meeting room. You could do it in a cafe or elsewhere. Not everything has to be so strict. Depends on your team and environment.
  - wonderwonder 3y ago
    I wish. Many of us work from home now though so its just zoom meeting after zoom meeting.

closeparen 3y ago

This almost never happens in official scheduled meetings or in the presence of any kind of manager. Instead it takes place randomly around the office, in Slack chats that escalate to ad-hoc Zoom calls, in documents and their comment threads, in putting eyes and hands on the actual product (underrated!), or in deep-diving data.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

wonderwonder 3y ago

This is not accomplished by holding developers in 15+ people meetings over and over again. Opening my calendar and seeing that I have 8 or 9 30+ minute meetings means I am going to get nothing accomplished today due to context switching. Its every day. I have almost no 2 - 3 hour periods where I can just focus