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I don't really see what this adds to the conversation. It basically boils down to "stop whining and leave". If we can't talk about bad practices, we can't fix

I don't really see what this adds to the conversation. It basically boils down to "stop whining and leave". If we can't talk about bad practices, we can't fix them.

mangamadaiyan 3y ago
Corollary: how do you get someone who has partaken of the kool-aid to recognize that a practice involving their pet dogma is bad? In my experience, kool-aid drinkers (regardless of the dogma in question) always go hammer and tongs to defend their position. Any questions as to the goodness of certain dogmatic practices -- or the lack thereof -- are considered to be personal attacks, and summarily dealt with.
- igetspam 3y ago
  A similar thing can be said about those who see certain ideas as dogmatic. They're so resistant to hearing what the categorize as dogmatic thinking, they often can't hear good ideas. User stories are great, when they make sense and the people reading them and writing them agree on the methodology. Agile is fine for those who like the model but so is (trigger warning: anti patterns being complimented ahead) waterfall. I prefer Kanban but it works well for my team I'm ways agile doesn't. I like it so much, I talk about it. I also like user stories but for a different use case: SLOs. Surprise! I subscribe to the SLOs. Any of the things I just said could be portrayed as one form of dogma or another. It's only a bad thing when people don't align. When people share or at least agree to a methodology, they're great.
  - mangamadaiyan 3y ago
    Methinks the burden of proof lies on the person making the claim. The dogmatic aspect enters the picture when questions are fobbed off with non-answers. Do note that the discussion is _not_ about personal preferences, but about "best practices".
- roqi 3y ago
  > Corollary: how do you get someone who has partaken of the kool-aid to recognize that a practice involving their pet dogma is bad? What leads you to believe that just because you disagree with something then it's automatically a dogma and bad? If you're trying to debate the merits of an idea and you start your argument by dismissing and discrediting proponents, regardless of what they might say or how weak your points are, and to make matters worse you admit the proponents of said idea invariably win over your arguments, doesn't that suggest that there's some likelihood you're in the wrong?
  - mangamadaiyan 3y ago
    Touchy much? If you read the rest of my post, you'll see that "questions as to the goodness of practices, or the lack thereof, are treated as personal attacks". There are other symptoms too, like questions being answered with non-answers. Again, when someone claims that their way is the true way, and that everyone else _must_ follow the one true way, I believe that the burden of proof lies on them. Your opinions might vary!
EdwardDiego 3y ago
> It basically boils down to "stop whining and leave". I think you missed a branch in your case statement. GP comment stated: > either try to change the way things are done or quit and find a place that suits you better. To my reading, "do this thing about it, or do this other thing about it " doesn't resolve down to "quit whining". To merely "quit whining" implies sullen, passive, acquiescence. Whereas the person you replied to framed it as a choice between two paths, neither of which involved passive acceptance.
idopmstuff 3y ago
Putting aside the oversimplication of what I wrote, "stop whining and leave" is precisely the way that you fix this problem and many similar ones. If Agile (or whatever component of it) is horrible, then vote with your feet and go to a place that doesn't use it. If using Agile makes your company unable to recruit good engineers, then the cost of it is clearly going to outweigh the benefits, and so it'll go away. Writing blog posts about how user stories are terrible, on the other hand, won't change anything.
roqi 3y ago
> I don't really see what this adds to the conversation. It basically boils down to "stop whining and leave". I see it as adding a solution to a blog post describing the perception of a problem. Isn't there a catchphrase of sorts that reads something like "either change company culture or change company"? If you can't change the company culture and you feel strongly about that, why do you think it's not in your best interest to change your life for the better? Sometimes you and your job are a bad fit, and there is no way around it.

I don't really see what this adds to the conversation. It basically boils down to "stop whining and leave". If we can't talk about bad practices, we can't fix them.

mangamadaiyan 3y ago

Corollary: how do you get someone who has partaken of the kool-aid to recognize that a practice involving their pet dogma is bad? In my experience, kool-aid drinkers (regardless of the dogma in question) always go hammer and tongs to defend their position. Any questions as to the goodness of certain dogmatic practices -- or the lack thereof -- are considered to be personal attacks, and summarily dealt with.

igetspam 3y ago
A similar thing can be said about those who see certain ideas as dogmatic. They're so resistant to hearing what the categorize as dogmatic thinking, they often can't hear good ideas. User stories are great, when they make sense and the people reading them and writing them agree on the methodology. Agile is fine for those who like the model but so is (trigger warning: anti patterns being complimented ahead) waterfall. I prefer Kanban but it works well for my team I'm ways agile doesn't. I like it so much, I talk about it. I also like user stories but for a different use case: SLOs. Surprise! I subscribe to the SLOs. Any of the things I just said could be portrayed as one form of dogma or another. It's only a bad thing when people don't align. When people share or at least agree to a methodology, they're great.
- mangamadaiyan 3y ago
  Methinks the burden of proof lies on the person making the claim. The dogmatic aspect enters the picture when questions are fobbed off with non-answers. Do note that the discussion is _not_ about personal preferences, but about "best practices".
roqi 3y ago
> Corollary: how do you get someone who has partaken of the kool-aid to recognize that a practice involving their pet dogma is bad? What leads you to believe that just because you disagree with something then it's automatically a dogma and bad? If you're trying to debate the merits of an idea and you start your argument by dismissing and discrediting proponents, regardless of what they might say or how weak your points are, and to make matters worse you admit the proponents of said idea invariably win over your arguments, doesn't that suggest that there's some likelihood you're in the wrong?
- mangamadaiyan 3y ago
  Touchy much? If you read the rest of my post, you'll see that "questions as to the goodness of practices, or the lack thereof, are treated as personal attacks". There are other symptoms too, like questions being answered with non-answers. Again, when someone claims that their way is the true way, and that everyone else _must_ follow the one true way, I believe that the burden of proof lies on them. Your opinions might vary!

EdwardDiego 3y ago

> It basically boils down to "stop whining and leave". I think you missed a branch in your case statement. GP comment stated: > either try to change the way things are done or quit and find a place that suits you better. To my reading, "do this thing about it, or do this other thing about it " doesn't resolve down to "quit whining". To merely "quit whining" implies sullen, passive, acquiescence. Whereas the person you replied to framed it as a choice between two paths, neither of which involved passive acceptance.

idopmstuff 3y ago

Putting aside the oversimplication of what I wrote, "stop whining and leave" is precisely the way that you fix this problem and many similar ones. If Agile (or whatever component of it) is horrible, then vote with your feet and go to a place that doesn't use it. If using Agile makes your company unable to recruit good engineers, then the cost of it is clearly going to outweigh the benefits, and so it'll go away. Writing blog posts about how user stories are terrible, on the other hand, won't change anything.

roqi 3y ago

> I don't really see what this adds to the conversation. It basically boils down to "stop whining and leave". I see it as adding a solution to a blog post describing the perception of a problem. Isn't there a catchphrase of sorts that reads something like "either change company culture or change company"? If you can't change the company culture and you feel strongly about that, why do you think it's not in your best interest to change your life for the better? Sometimes you and your job are a bad fit, and there is no way around it.