4 ms·

Hardening against really high energy pulses adds weight, and quite a lot of it. And flying things don't like weight. It'll be arms race, as always.

paganel 3y ago
> It'll be arms race, as always. Example: You send 10-15 cheap drones against a side that employs THOR. When the drones get close to the target THOR will activate itself and bring down those 10-15 cheap drones, and thus revealing its position. You then target THOR directly either with artillery or with a slightly more expensive missile. Once THOR is out you can then send 100 to 200 cheap drones. Rinse and repeat.
- ianferrel 3y ago
  Yep. But the picture shows it mounted on a trailer, so its position doesn't have to be static.
  - paganel 3y ago
    In theory, yes, in practice, it's more complicated. Supposedly a similar thing happened with the recent attack on the Patriot system in Kiev, i.e. the Russians first sent some cheep Geran drones, the Ukrainians shot them down activating the radars around the Patriot system (or part of the Patriot system? not that clear), then the Russians sent some anti-radar missiles that took those Ukrainian radars out and in the third and last stage they sent some more advanced missiles that directly targeted and damaged the Patriot (which was by then without radar protection). Almost all images of radar systems that I saw from this war in Ukraine involved mobile units, both on the Ukrainians' and on the Russians' side.
    - jandrewrogers 3y ago
      That's not how it works, the Patriot is a completely self-contained distributed system with a lot of redundancy. It has its own networked radars that can track both missile and aircraft threats. In the instance you are referring to, the Russians tried to flood the zone with a mixture of flight profiles simultaneously (ballistic, cruise, and drone) to overwhelm and complicate the defense. An air defense missile optimized for ballistic missiles won't be great for cruise missiles and vice versa. Patriot batteries contain different missiles optimized for aircraft/cruise missiles (PAC-2) and ballistic missiles (PAC-3). While there are human operators, the Patriot has a fully autonomous mode that is turned on for large-scale attacks like most integrated defense systems produced by the US. When that mode is enabled humans are no longer in the loop; the networked computers engage all of the targets simultaneously, selecting the optimal weapon assignment and timing for each target. That was clearly used here. If the Patriot didn't have radar it wouldn't work and it clearly worked. No Patriot system was damaged by Russian attacks, there is no evidence that anything got through. The only reported damage was an auxiliary system component getting hit by a large piece of falling debris, which was promptly repaired.
      - denton-scratch 3y ago
        > which was promptly repaired ...using Duck tape, apparently.
      - paganel 3y ago
        > No Patriot system was damaged by Russian attacks As per the US media [1]: > The damage to a Patriot air defense system following a Russian missile attack near Kyiv on Tuesday morning is minimal, three US officials tell CNN, with one official describing it as “minor” damage. The say the damage was "minimal", but it's there. (and the "minimal" part only showed up later, after the CNN reporter who had first reported it all got accused of being a Russian shill because of it) [1] https://edition.cnn.com/2023/05/16/politics/patriot-missile-damage-ukraine/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2023/05/16/politics/patriot-missile-...
- CPLX 3y ago
  > thus revealing its position Takes a pretty serious piece of tech to do that part though
  - codyb 3y ago
    Yea, would it make a lot of noise, you wouldn't really see it right? Would the energy be detectable by some sort of equipment that you could visualize on the screen?
  - ikekkdcjkfke 3y ago
    Triangulation?
- edot 3y ago
  Your artillery fires on my THOR but its projectiles are taken out by my C-RAM. Your artillery’s position is noted by my ISR overhead. Your artillery is destroyed by my longer-range artillery. Your 200 cheap drones attempt to attack but are taken out by my still-extant THOR. I now hit your launching point with my artillery again.
  - bilbo0s 3y ago
    All of you do realize war is never as clean and predictable as you are all making it out to be right? You "just" get THOR to fire and take them out? You "just" take out inbound artillery? I haven't paid attention to them since the First Gulf War, but the abilities and competence of the 101st Chairbourne continue to be renoun and without equal.
  - paganel 3y ago
    Yes, it will be all a matter of execution. And as this is supposed to be used either against the Russians or against the Chinese it will all depend on how the Americans' execution will compare to that of the Russians and/or of the Chinese. Can't speak about the Chinese, but because of this war in Ukraine the Russians definitely have a very big head-start when it comes to the execution of anything artillery-related, as in I don't think the Americans have had to fight a real counter-artillery fire since at least the Battle of Hue. Maybe the Ukrainians (also pretty experienced by now) will teach them, if they (meaning the Americans) will be open to learn.
    - woobar 3y ago
      I think the parent just tried to demonstrate what the "arm race" really mean. I.e. they just countered your hypothetical with another one. As for the the Russians, they clearly shown that spending tons of munitions to make holes in the open fields is not really efficient. [1] Ukrainians on the other hand are pretty successful in counter-battery fire using US (sic!) systems. See HIMARS, for instance. [1] https://s2.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20220617&t=2&i=1602124488&w=780 https://s2.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20220617&t=2...

paganel 3y ago

> It'll be arms race, as always. Example: You send 10-15 cheap drones against a side that employs THOR. When the drones get close to the target THOR will activate itself and bring down those 10-15 cheap drones, and thus revealing its position. You then target THOR directly either with artillery or with a slightly more expensive missile. Once THOR is out you can then send 100 to 200 cheap drones. Rinse and repeat.

ianferrel 3y ago
Yep. But the picture shows it mounted on a trailer, so its position doesn't have to be static.
- paganel 3y ago
  In theory, yes, in practice, it's more complicated. Supposedly a similar thing happened with the recent attack on the Patriot system in Kiev, i.e. the Russians first sent some cheep Geran drones, the Ukrainians shot them down activating the radars around the Patriot system (or part of the Patriot system? not that clear), then the Russians sent some anti-radar missiles that took those Ukrainian radars out and in the third and last stage they sent some more advanced missiles that directly targeted and damaged the Patriot (which was by then without radar protection). Almost all images of radar systems that I saw from this war in Ukraine involved mobile units, both on the Ukrainians' and on the Russians' side.
  - jandrewrogers 3y ago
    That's not how it works, the Patriot is a completely self-contained distributed system with a lot of redundancy. It has its own networked radars that can track both missile and aircraft threats. In the instance you are referring to, the Russians tried to flood the zone with a mixture of flight profiles simultaneously (ballistic, cruise, and drone) to overwhelm and complicate the defense. An air defense missile optimized for ballistic missiles won't be great for cruise missiles and vice versa. Patriot batteries contain different missiles optimized for aircraft/cruise missiles (PAC-2) and ballistic missiles (PAC-3). While there are human operators, the Patriot has a fully autonomous mode that is turned on for large-scale attacks like most integrated defense systems produced by the US. When that mode is enabled humans are no longer in the loop; the networked computers engage all of the targets simultaneously, selecting the optimal weapon assignment and timing for each target. That was clearly used here. If the Patriot didn't have radar it wouldn't work and it clearly worked. No Patriot system was damaged by Russian attacks, there is no evidence that anything got through. The only reported damage was an auxiliary system component getting hit by a large piece of falling debris, which was promptly repaired.
    - denton-scratch 3y ago
      > which was promptly repaired ...using Duck tape, apparently.
    - paganel 3y ago
      > No Patriot system was damaged by Russian attacks As per the US media [1]: > The damage to a Patriot air defense system following a Russian missile attack near Kyiv on Tuesday morning is minimal, three US officials tell CNN, with one official describing it as “minor” damage. The say the damage was "minimal", but it's there. (and the "minimal" part only showed up later, after the CNN reporter who had first reported it all got accused of being a Russian shill because of it) [1] https://edition.cnn.com/2023/05/16/politics/patriot-missile-damage-ukraine/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2023/05/16/politics/patriot-missile-...
CPLX 3y ago
> thus revealing its position Takes a pretty serious piece of tech to do that part though
- codyb 3y ago
  Yea, would it make a lot of noise, you wouldn't really see it right? Would the energy be detectable by some sort of equipment that you could visualize on the screen?
- ikekkdcjkfke 3y ago
  Triangulation?
edot 3y ago
Your artillery fires on my THOR but its projectiles are taken out by my C-RAM. Your artillery’s position is noted by my ISR overhead. Your artillery is destroyed by my longer-range artillery. Your 200 cheap drones attempt to attack but are taken out by my still-extant THOR. I now hit your launching point with my artillery again.
- bilbo0s 3y ago
  All of you do realize war is never as clean and predictable as you are all making it out to be right? You "just" get THOR to fire and take them out? You "just" take out inbound artillery? I haven't paid attention to them since the First Gulf War, but the abilities and competence of the 101st Chairbourne continue to be renoun and without equal.
- paganel 3y ago
  Yes, it will be all a matter of execution. And as this is supposed to be used either against the Russians or against the Chinese it will all depend on how the Americans' execution will compare to that of the Russians and/or of the Chinese. Can't speak about the Chinese, but because of this war in Ukraine the Russians definitely have a very big head-start when it comes to the execution of anything artillery-related, as in I don't think the Americans have had to fight a real counter-artillery fire since at least the Battle of Hue. Maybe the Ukrainians (also pretty experienced by now) will teach them, if they (meaning the Americans) will be open to learn.
  - woobar 3y ago
    I think the parent just tried to demonstrate what the "arm race" really mean. I.e. they just countered your hypothetical with another one. As for the the Russians, they clearly shown that spending tons of munitions to make holes in the open fields is not really efficient. [1] Ukrainians on the other hand are pretty successful in counter-battery fire using US (sic!) systems. See HIMARS, for instance. [1] https://s2.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20220617&t=2&i=1602124488&w=780 https://s2.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20220617&t=2...