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I'm really looking forward to bookworm. Not for any particular reason, but just to have another fresh base (and see even more up-to-date packages start showing

I'm really looking forward to bookworm. Not for any particular reason, but just to have another fresh base (and see even more up-to-date packages start showing up in bookworm-backports). I'm a recent refugee from ubuntu LTS's, after having run them for a decade or so. Previously, I just never really had a reason to move away from the community support and google-ability around ubuntu, plus many guides having example commands for ubuntu installs etc. Snaps are what made me switch. It's insane that they're making apt packages pull in snaps. If snaps were an additional thing similar in spirit to `/usr/local` where system admins could install weird stuff they needed that didn't fit, that's one thing. Forcing them onto me is another, especially when you can literally feel the difference between a program living in a snap vs one installed normally. This is nitpicky but I also don't like that it messes with my mount and df outputs with a bunch of mounts I don't care about and 100%-full filesystems. Now, debian - I don't know why I didn't make this switch ages ago! It's everything I wanted from ubuntu without any of ubuntu's opinions. My new default linux distro for servers. (I still run Arch on my laptop).

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Scramblejams 3y ago
Similar story for me. I used Debian for servers for many years, then a few years ago I thought, "well I like Ubuntu's LTS support timespans and release cadence, I think I'll start using that for new server deployments." Then snap happened, now I'm back to Debian. Typing "apt-get install" and ending up with a snap is a really jarring experience.
- tomxor 3y ago
  Debian LTS is also 5 years https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/ https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/ > Debian Long Term Support (LTS) is a project to extend the lifetime of all Debian stable releases to (at least) 5 years But to be honest I find the LTS schedule a bit confusing when comparing to Ubuntu, because it's separate from the initial stable period, e.g Debian 11 Bullseye (the current stable release) transitioned into stable in 2021, and on above page it's LTS support date is in set between 2024 and 2026. I wonder if this difference in presentation has previously put people off. You can also pay for extended support for a further 5 years from a 3rd party for a total of 10 years: https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/Extended https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/Extended
- ilyt 3y ago
  We moved our servers from Centos (then 6) to Debian. Holy shit so many stuff that we had to fix or change "just worked". And upgrades works! Maybe less important in container era but still.
donkeybeer 3y ago
I am planning the same and for exactly the same reasons, viz snap. Its encouraging to hear you have had success with it. edit: Is there anyone who can share their experiences switching from Ubuntu to Debian on the desktop?
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  It's the same. Ubuntu is based on Debian. The default GUI is different but they change that in every major release anyway.
  - donkeybeer 3y ago
    I was wondering more about support of drivers and codecs etc. Is Debian after adding the non-free drivers exactly the same as Ubuntu or are there some things that are only specially available in Ubuntu? Especially also regarding things like audio/video codecs, hdmi etc.
    - tpxl 3y ago
      I went from Ubuntu to Debian on a desktop machine. I have an nVidia 1080Ti with default drivers, running 3 displays with no problems. Motherboard audio works, USB headphones also work well. I can watch videos no problem and re-encoding/recording with ffmpeg/OBS works without a hitch. Only thing I remember doing is replacing the firefox version from ESR to latest. 10/10, would recommend over snaps.
    - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
      They're allegedly including the non-free stuff automatically now, but the better solution is to avoid that hardware whenever possible. Proprietary drivers tend to have more bugs because the public can't fix them, and even if they're supported now, you're at the vendor's mercy for when it stops working regardless of what Debian or Ubuntu includes.
- pmontra 3y ago
  My Ubuntu desktop was very customized to make it look as much as possible as the old Gnome 2 and drop any animation and special effect. I installed all the Gnome shell extensions I had on Ubuntu, removed some and added others to cope with the new version of the shell. I have an almost pixel perfect copy of my Ubuntu desktop now.
tkuraku 3y ago
Same switched to Debian. It is super stable without snaps and other Ubuntu craziness. I use it as my desktop os.
- ilyt 3y ago
  At this point I assume anything ubuntu adds will either be janky or replaced within few years by something else
pmontra 3y ago
Yep, I moved from Ubuntu 20.04 to Debian 11 for the same reasons during the Christmas holidays. I'll live boot Debian 12 and check how it copes with my 2014 laptop. The main hurdle is the NVIDIA graphic card. Sooner or later the proprietary driver for X11 will stop supporting it by and who knows if the one for Wayland will work. I remember I had problems with Wayland so I went back to X11. The card is a Quadro K1100M.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  A lot of laptops with NVIDIA graphics still had integrated graphics on the CPU, and the Intel drivers are much better if all you need is to drive the display. (And if you're trying to put a load on the GPU with something so old then you're screwed anyway.) See if the BIOS has a setting to disable it.
m463 3y ago
I also dislike ubuntu's automated and phone-home behavior. For my installs, I rip out or neutralize the motd-news stuff, ubuntu-advantage-tools, ubuntu-report, whoopsie*, snapd, etc...
hotpotamus 3y ago
Add me to the list I suppose. I used Ubuntu as a desktop for basically all of the 2010's and so it seemed pretty natural to use it as a server too. Now I like Pop!_OS for desktop and plain Debian for server.
sampa 3y ago
I don't get, just remove snapd, mask it in apt and that's it. Oh, and add Firefox repo. Now it's back to normal.
- yamtaddle 3y ago
  If you're having to screw with defaults right out-of-the-box, with Ubuntu, you may as well just use Debian. Basically its whole value-prop was originally "Debian, but with obviously-correct defaults for most desktop users".
- Flimm 3y ago
  Even after you add the Firefox repository, installing Firefox from APT is not as simple as "sudo apt install firefox". That command would still install the Snap version of Firefox. You have to figure out how to force APT to pick the "firefox" package from the new repository rather than from the default Ubuntu repositories.
arc-in-space 3y ago
For what it's worth, Debian and Ubuntu are similar enough that a lot of the troubleshooting people post online for Ubuntu tends to work with Debian, too.
- ilyt 3y ago
  In many cases the Ubuntu package might work too, as long as you use Ubuntu that's older version than Debian
ilyt 3y ago
Debian is the vanilla of distros - just enough glue to make stuff work well together. And upgrades work the smoothest of any distros I tried. My desktop install is from 2007 and I think it survived replacement of every component of my machine including the case. We even had one of admins accidentally update one of legacy servers "2 versions up" and it just worked!
- sph 3y ago
  > Debian is the vanilla of distros - just enough glue to make stuff work well together. Just enough glue and tons of patches. I used to love Debian, these days I much prefer the "upstream is king, do not patch it unless it's broken" approach of Arch Linux, and to a lesser extent, Fedora. I always say that when you learn to use Apache 2 on Debian, you only learn how to use Apache 2 on Debian. There was a moment of confusion the first time I configured it on Arch and there was no /etc/apache2/sites-enabled directory. Upstream will always know better, and have better testing facilities than a random maintainer adding their custom solution on top of the vanilla code. (Since I'm here complaining, I might as well add I dislike deb/apt more than I dislike dnf/rpm, and they are both quite unergonomic) Just my 2 cents. I respect Debian and its place in the Linux world. I've just fallen out of love with it and that's OK. I wish non-Debian distros were more popular though.
derefr 3y ago
> My new default linux distro for servers. How do you deploy anything that depends on bleeding-edge programming-language runtimes? Half the stuff I end up installing on servers are Ubuntu PPAs maintained by the third party software vendor; which in turn depend on Ubuntu-specific base packages that don't exist on Debian. If your answer is "I use containers", then that's just a regress — as for most complex software (i.e. not just a static binary), due to library package requirements, the base OS-image inside the container almost always ends up being Ubuntu. So now you have to ask, how does the person creating the container-image switch to using Debian for that?
- 3np 3y ago
  > Ubuntu PPAs maintained by the third party software vendor; If it's proprietary closed binaries distributed over a PPA, I'd prefer run those in independent VMs (first trying the PPA on Debian - they're really just apt repos and can be added as suc), falling back to Ubuntu if its not worth resources fixing some particular one > as for most complex software (i.e. not just a static binary), due to library package requirements, the base OS-image inside the container almost always ends up being Ubuntu. I don't share this experience at all. The only situations I had where Ubuntu PPAs was the only nontrivial solution would be kernel drivers - precisely what does not go into containers. > your answer is "I use containers", then that's just a regress — as for most complex software (i.e. not just a static binary), due to library package requirements, the base OS-image inside the container almost always ends up being Ubuntu The reasons to move away from Ubuntu as base distro often don't apply to container images. Ubuntu images don't run any daemons like snap and are actually quite optimized for size (smaller than Debian, surprise surprise) > So now you have to ask, how does the person creating the container-image switch to using Debian for that? Compile outstanding libraries from source in the image build; injecting integrity-checked static assets as necessary.
- jaredhallen 3y ago
  I made a similar comment above. I find myself needing so many packages that aren't in the Debian repositories, over time the system just morphs into Ubuntu anyway.
alyandon 3y ago
You are not alone. I will likely be migrating from Ubuntu to Debian on my next major upgrade cycle because of snap packages being forced upon me in places they should never exist (headless servers, substitutes for debs, etc).
jaredhallen 3y ago
I agree with your reasons. But on the flip side, I've installed Debian a few times in the past, and I always end up wanting packages or versions of packages that aren't available. Over time my package source lists end up changing to Ubuntu anyway, and after some upgrading, I'm essentially running Ubuntu, upgraded in place from the Debian base install.
gettodachoppa 3y ago
Same here. Got my start on Ubuntu, always loved Ubuntu, but they lost me to Debian because of snaps. My reasons are different from yours: I can tolerate UI issues, polluting the mount list is far worse, but the dealbreaker is that the user is not allowed to disable automatic updates on snaps, the option merely delays updates for a maximum of 30 days. I simply cannot accept someone patching my OS against my will, what is this, Windows? And since Ubuntu went all in on snap, more and more system apps are snaps, so it's not as simple as removing snapd, I see what's coming on the horizon. The snap developers arrogantly tell you you're wrong for wanting to disable automatic updates, and they will not make it optional like it is for apt. This is despite the snap store being a far less tested/reviewed repo than the apt repo. So any rando can upload a snap package, you can install it after approving it, then said rando can push a malicious update, and it will be immediately deployed to my PC against my will. "Use another distro if you don't like it?" OK, that's what I did. But I would still be a Ubuntu user if the snap devs weren't so smug and antagonistic.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Scramblejams 3y ago

Similar story for me. I used Debian for servers for many years, then a few years ago I thought, "well I like Ubuntu's LTS support timespans and release cadence, I think I'll start using that for new server deployments." Then snap happened, now I'm back to Debian. Typing "apt-get install" and ending up with a snap is a really jarring experience.

tomxor 3y ago
Debian LTS is also 5 years https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/ https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/ > Debian Long Term Support (LTS) is a project to extend the lifetime of all Debian stable releases to (at least) 5 years But to be honest I find the LTS schedule a bit confusing when comparing to Ubuntu, because it's separate from the initial stable period, e.g Debian 11 Bullseye (the current stable release) transitioned into stable in 2021, and on above page it's LTS support date is in set between 2024 and 2026. I wonder if this difference in presentation has previously put people off. You can also pay for extended support for a further 5 years from a 3rd party for a total of 10 years: https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/Extended https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/Extended
ilyt 3y ago
We moved our servers from Centos (then 6) to Debian. Holy shit so many stuff that we had to fix or change "just worked". And upgrades works! Maybe less important in container era but still.

donkeybeer 3y ago

I am planning the same and for exactly the same reasons, viz snap. Its encouraging to hear you have had success with it. edit: Is there anyone who can share their experiences switching from Ubuntu to Debian on the desktop?

AnthonyMouse 3y ago
It's the same. Ubuntu is based on Debian. The default GUI is different but they change that in every major release anyway.
- donkeybeer 3y ago
  I was wondering more about support of drivers and codecs etc. Is Debian after adding the non-free drivers exactly the same as Ubuntu or are there some things that are only specially available in Ubuntu? Especially also regarding things like audio/video codecs, hdmi etc.
  - tpxl 3y ago
    I went from Ubuntu to Debian on a desktop machine. I have an nVidia 1080Ti with default drivers, running 3 displays with no problems. Motherboard audio works, USB headphones also work well. I can watch videos no problem and re-encoding/recording with ffmpeg/OBS works without a hitch. Only thing I remember doing is replacing the firefox version from ESR to latest. 10/10, would recommend over snaps.
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    They're allegedly including the non-free stuff automatically now, but the better solution is to avoid that hardware whenever possible. Proprietary drivers tend to have more bugs because the public can't fix them, and even if they're supported now, you're at the vendor's mercy for when it stops working regardless of what Debian or Ubuntu includes.
pmontra 3y ago
My Ubuntu desktop was very customized to make it look as much as possible as the old Gnome 2 and drop any animation and special effect. I installed all the Gnome shell extensions I had on Ubuntu, removed some and added others to cope with the new version of the shell. I have an almost pixel perfect copy of my Ubuntu desktop now.

tkuraku 3y ago

Same switched to Debian. It is super stable without snaps and other Ubuntu craziness. I use it as my desktop os.

ilyt 3y ago
At this point I assume anything ubuntu adds will either be janky or replaced within few years by something else

pmontra 3y ago

Yep, I moved from Ubuntu 20.04 to Debian 11 for the same reasons during the Christmas holidays. I'll live boot Debian 12 and check how it copes with my 2014 laptop. The main hurdle is the NVIDIA graphic card. Sooner or later the proprietary driver for X11 will stop supporting it by and who knows if the one for Wayland will work. I remember I had problems with Wayland so I went back to X11. The card is a Quadro K1100M.

AnthonyMouse 3y ago
A lot of laptops with NVIDIA graphics still had integrated graphics on the CPU, and the Intel drivers are much better if all you need is to drive the display. (And if you're trying to put a load on the GPU with something so old then you're screwed anyway.) See if the BIOS has a setting to disable it.

m463 3y ago

I also dislike ubuntu's automated and phone-home behavior. For my installs, I rip out or neutralize the motd-news stuff, ubuntu-advantage-tools, ubuntu-report, whoopsie*, snapd, etc...

hotpotamus 3y ago

Add me to the list I suppose. I used Ubuntu as a desktop for basically all of the 2010's and so it seemed pretty natural to use it as a server too. Now I like Pop!_OS for desktop and plain Debian for server.

sampa 3y ago

I don't get, just remove snapd, mask it in apt and that's it. Oh, and add Firefox repo. Now it's back to normal.

yamtaddle 3y ago
If you're having to screw with defaults right out-of-the-box, with Ubuntu, you may as well just use Debian. Basically its whole value-prop was originally "Debian, but with obviously-correct defaults for most desktop users".
Flimm 3y ago
Even after you add the Firefox repository, installing Firefox from APT is not as simple as "sudo apt install firefox". That command would still install the Snap version of Firefox. You have to figure out how to force APT to pick the "firefox" package from the new repository rather than from the default Ubuntu repositories.

arc-in-space 3y ago

For what it's worth, Debian and Ubuntu are similar enough that a lot of the troubleshooting people post online for Ubuntu tends to work with Debian, too.

ilyt 3y ago
In many cases the Ubuntu package might work too, as long as you use Ubuntu that's older version than Debian

ilyt 3y ago

Debian is the vanilla of distros - just enough glue to make stuff work well together. And upgrades work the smoothest of any distros I tried. My desktop install is from 2007 and I think it survived replacement of every component of my machine including the case. We even had one of admins accidentally update one of legacy servers "2 versions up" and it just worked!

sph 3y ago
> Debian is the vanilla of distros - just enough glue to make stuff work well together. Just enough glue and tons of patches. I used to love Debian, these days I much prefer the "upstream is king, do not patch it unless it's broken" approach of Arch Linux, and to a lesser extent, Fedora. I always say that when you learn to use Apache 2 on Debian, you only learn how to use Apache 2 on Debian. There was a moment of confusion the first time I configured it on Arch and there was no /etc/apache2/sites-enabled directory. Upstream will always know better, and have better testing facilities than a random maintainer adding their custom solution on top of the vanilla code. (Since I'm here complaining, I might as well add I dislike deb/apt more than I dislike dnf/rpm, and they are both quite unergonomic) Just my 2 cents. I respect Debian and its place in the Linux world. I've just fallen out of love with it and that's OK. I wish non-Debian distros were more popular though.

derefr 3y ago

> My new default linux distro for servers. How do you deploy anything that depends on bleeding-edge programming-language runtimes? Half the stuff I end up installing on servers are Ubuntu PPAs maintained by the third party software vendor; which in turn depend on Ubuntu-specific base packages that don't exist on Debian. If your answer is "I use containers", then that's just a regress — as for most complex software (i.e. not just a static binary), due to library package requirements, the base OS-image inside the container almost always ends up being Ubuntu. So now you have to ask, how does the person creating the container-image switch to using Debian for that?

3np 3y ago
> Ubuntu PPAs maintained by the third party software vendor; If it's proprietary closed binaries distributed over a PPA, I'd prefer run those in independent VMs (first trying the PPA on Debian - they're really just apt repos and can be added as suc), falling back to Ubuntu if its not worth resources fixing some particular one > as for most complex software (i.e. not just a static binary), due to library package requirements, the base OS-image inside the container almost always ends up being Ubuntu. I don't share this experience at all. The only situations I had where Ubuntu PPAs was the only nontrivial solution would be kernel drivers - precisely what does not go into containers. > your answer is "I use containers", then that's just a regress — as for most complex software (i.e. not just a static binary), due to library package requirements, the base OS-image inside the container almost always ends up being Ubuntu The reasons to move away from Ubuntu as base distro often don't apply to container images. Ubuntu images don't run any daemons like snap and are actually quite optimized for size (smaller than Debian, surprise surprise) > So now you have to ask, how does the person creating the container-image switch to using Debian for that? Compile outstanding libraries from source in the image build; injecting integrity-checked static assets as necessary.
jaredhallen 3y ago
I made a similar comment above. I find myself needing so many packages that aren't in the Debian repositories, over time the system just morphs into Ubuntu anyway.

alyandon 3y ago

You are not alone. I will likely be migrating from Ubuntu to Debian on my next major upgrade cycle because of snap packages being forced upon me in places they should never exist (headless servers, substitutes for debs, etc).

jaredhallen 3y ago

I agree with your reasons. But on the flip side, I've installed Debian a few times in the past, and I always end up wanting packages or versions of packages that aren't available. Over time my package source lists end up changing to Ubuntu anyway, and after some upgrading, I'm essentially running Ubuntu, upgraded in place from the Debian base install.

gettodachoppa 3y ago

Same here. Got my start on Ubuntu, always loved Ubuntu, but they lost me to Debian because of snaps. My reasons are different from yours: I can tolerate UI issues, polluting the mount list is far worse, but the dealbreaker is that the user is not allowed to disable automatic updates on snaps, the option merely delays updates for a maximum of 30 days. I simply cannot accept someone patching my OS against my will, what is this, Windows? And since Ubuntu went all in on snap, more and more system apps are snaps, so it's not as simple as removing snapd, I see what's coming on the horizon. The snap developers arrogantly tell you you're wrong for wanting to disable automatic updates, and they will not make it optional like it is for apt. This is despite the snap store being a far less tested/reviewed repo than the apt repo. So any rando can upload a snap package, you can install it after approving it, then said rando can push a malicious update, and it will be immediately deployed to my PC against my will. "Use another distro if you don't like it?" OK, that's what I did. But I would still be a Ubuntu user if the snap devs weren't so smug and antagonistic.